I don't understand the logic here. When the putsch occured and then ignomously fizzled out, I saw Putin as weak for letting Pringles walk out with a (relative) slap on the wrist. Taking Prigo out of the picture was overdue. Obviously, anyone would feel threatened by an semi-autonomous mercenary army, so removing its leadership and breaking it up is just a rational course of action that probably should have been done sooner from that POV
If they took him out before the deal was made sure, this soon after just shows weakness and a lack of credibility. They did the equivalent to getting into a bar fight, talking it out instead and then in front of every one sucker punching the other guy.
You claim they started with tractors. This is utter nonsense; the AFU started the war as a legitimate military, especially after it took the decade following the Minsk agreements to arm up in anticipation of this war.
You also claim they are pushing Russia back despite the front not moving appreciably in the past year, even during the latest vaunted counteroffensive.
You claim they started with tractors. This is utter nonsense; the AFU started the war as a legitimate military, especially after it took the decade following the Minsk agreements to arm up in anticipation of this war.
Russia used to call itself the 2nd strongest military on Earth.
Now they're clearly the 2nd strongest military in Ukraine. And they're sliding down.
You might not understand this, but they literally only survived because everyone was terrified of them, 'Crazy Ivan' who snaps and does something stupid.
That illusion SHATTERED with the failure to take Kyiv, it shattered and Europe's fear turned to rage, rage at being intimidated for decades by a clearly broken joke of a power.
Until last year Russia wasn't worth our interest, there was nothing there of value or threat, it was a far away, annoying country but it was someone else's problem.
Now, Europe wants to watch them burn for fun.
If they hadn't invaded Ukraine they would have been able to hold this illusion for decades more while the oligarchs continued to rob the country to deposit into British banks, but now, Russia is a threat that needs to be dealt with.
Fortunately, it's not much of a threat, and this shouldn't take too long, the only reason it's taking this long right now is because we can only help indirectly through Ukraine.
But Russia is stupid, hopefully they'll do something Russian and pick a fight with the rest of NATO, because that's just what they do.
Now they're clearly the 2nd strongest military in Ukraine.
Delusions like this are sending Ukranians to pointless deaths right now.
The worst part is you will never stop to consider the implications of being so wrong on this when the war is finally resolved (with Russia and Ukraine in basically the same territories as now). Instead, you'll toss this one in the "history" pile with Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc., you know, the wars where you tell yourself you would have seen through the propaganda had you witnessed it in real time. Then you'll cheerlead the next war because It's A Good One This Time.
Delusions like this are sending Ukranians to pointless deaths right now.
Delusions like "a 3 hour special military operation"?
Yeah, I'm the one with delusions, not the country that's shooting itself in the dick, and literally assassinated several of its citizens in this post without any due process whatsoever.
Putin reportedly said. “But if I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.”
Besides the issue of not being able to verify this was actually said, "if I wanted to I could take Kiev in two weeks" is a lot different from "this entire operation will be over in three hours." "If I wanted to" in fact implies taking Kiev was not a goal, which aligns with it not being officially stated as a goal.
You put it in quotes and called it a special military op instead of a tour, so it was a little bit obfuscated
Edit: not that you meant to, of course, but it is what it is
As an aside, I think Putin was probably right, but under the condition that he carpet bombs multiple major cities from the first available moment. The war is brutal, but Russia has not been carpet-bombing for a litany of reasons (and it is good that they aren't)
Lmao so now you're claiming Putin was using some old English idiom in a private conversation with a Portuguese politician? Then said politician quoted Putin as saying a different phrase?
HA. Sometimes I think people forget how time works. That we did not watch russia make these statements in real time and somehow reddit would come into it as if its mere existence is an augment.
"I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case."
no ones bragging here, the material reality of the situation is ukraines casualities are 3:1 and russia remains in control of the conflict and where the lines are; every ukranian advancement recently has come at heavy cost
no ones bragging here, the material reality of the situation is ukraines casualities are 3:1 and russia remains in control of the conflict and where the lines are; every ukranian advancement recently has come at heavy cost
That's not even close to true, unless you count civilians, which isn't surprising because they're literally fighting in their country.
So yes, be proud, Russia has butchered more civilians!
Well by the conditions the russian federation placed 18 months ago would mean that yes Ukraine is winning. The fact the front lines are static does not mean what you think it does.
There is now a reply. I don't want to shock you, so make sure you're sitting down: in no way does the source support the view that Russia sought:
The return of Ukraine in its entirety to the russian nation for one.
Here is the quote, to save you scrolling up:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903 Parts to note:
“I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case.
“I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case.”
The return of Ukraine in its entirety to the russian nation for one.
That's what you claimed as one of Russia's war goals. You can see the excerpt you quoted isn't anything like that, right?
I'm not even trying to do some sick own or anything. You do see the difference between the stated aims and the propaganda circulating about "Russia wants to conquer the whole of Ukraine," don't you?
why should I give one shit about what russians goals where at the start of the war, the reality is its a meat grinder and the location of said meat grinder requires ukraine to move through it to advance, russia are setting the terms of this conflict and are in control.
I dont care about either sides goals because im not naive enough to buy into military propoganda, which the goals are.
During a war nothing either side says matters, you fatally misunderstand what happens to the media when a war breaks out, it just becomes another instrument of war, and as such nothing can be trusted but the satalite footage of where the war is and boots on the ground reports of people there, everything else is bullshit.
Ok please enlighten me on the winning condition for russia to end this conflict in their favour. No need for "military propoganda" just how does this end in your mind?
Ok, so what does that entail? I don't think you can just jump on TV and call peace. Ukraine has stated many times that they will not agree to any peace deal without the boarders going back to 2014, russia has stated that will not fly.
Even if you assume its a full on meat grinder for both sides, how does russia win in this situation?
They claimed this military operation was to de-milliteraze Ukraine, the opposite has happened.
They claimed this military operation was to put a stop to NATO expansion, the opposite has happened.
They claimed this military operation was to protect the Donbas people, now they are the group who has suffered the largest casualties in this conflict.
They claimed this military operation was to ensure the russian people prosperity and security, the opposite has happened.
That is my point, there is no going back. Even if Ukraine before this was on shaky ground as a nation they are now determined to fight on and on and on. russia also has no credibility as shown today, and this has been stated many times by Ukraine that any treaty with russia is worth less then the paper it is printed on.
So I ask again, how does russia get anyone to show up and sign anything? How do they force peace?
Most of the collective west is currently undergoing a thinly veiled reccession and electing more and more unstable forms of government, like the neo-nazi gov of italy, the shitshow that is UK politics (which is doing worse economically than russia, a country at war) and the clown parade that is the american govs complete inability to do anything for its own people.
There is already talk of pulling aid from Ukraine in many EU states like Austria and the US is starting to pivot towards Taiwan and has been calling this recent push 'Ukraines last chance', which they are admitting is failing.
there is no re-armament, none of the western ecomonies are geared for war, only the american military is and they are done sharing there surplus.
all that the west had to give was what it could afford to give away from its reserves without crippling there own defence sectors, russia has a active war ecomony, the west does not.
cltr+f'd 'aid' on your first article, no results (other than it hitting other words with aid in it)
that article is literally just about the military industrial complex being spun up in western europe instead of shit like housing lmao, nowhere does it suggest that ukraine will be receiving any of that, only that the money will be going to 'defence', this is not a war ecomony and I suspect you dont know what that is.
furthermore I suspect most of that money will be spent replenishing all of the things they just gave away, you realize
No, they were losing to tractors, and Moskva was sunk without a navy.
Now they're getting real gear and training to play.
The only thing Russia ever wins are Darwin awards. Fucking being proud of almost hurting a country a fraction of your size right next door, like the US being proud of conquering Ottawa.
All of Europe hates Russia with an all-consuming passion, except sometimes Serbia.
And... that's where you live! That's like all my neighbors thinking I'm a piece of shit and me saying "Oh yeah, well there are people in North Korea who don't hate me!"
See this is why no one can take you people as anything but a joke. Multiple people have asked for your opinion, position, argument, or any thing that would allow someone to seriously discuss anything, but you just reply with a joke, meme or provocation. What inside joke is this law enforcement agent from another country have to do with anything?
Not that you have shame? But this post is literally about putin assassinating a citizen of his in cold blood with no trial alongside several other innocent bystanders.
And you tried to use the word fascist to someone on the internet.
The people that died were fascists and Mercs, why do you care how they died? Do you hate Russia or not? This was a truly successful denazification action if you wanna get silly with it.
“Evil Russians.” Jesus Christ. As if the West did not rehabilitate European fascists immediately after WW2 and end up on the side of imperialism in every conflict around the world for the rest of the century and beyond. Many of which they themselves instigated. Get a fucking grip.
Definitely did not miss that. Whatever you think about the USSR, you cannot, without grotesque distortions of history, say that they rehabilitated European fascism. They executed nazis while the western powers were giving them citizenship, jobs, money, and weapons. And if you think soviet efforts to support revolutionary movements around the globe were “imperialism,” I’m not sure what to tell you besides please read a book.
How do you not see how gladio ties into this? It was basically the US changing sides in a war in Europe that never really ended. WW2 was about competition between imperial powers, and communism versus capitalism (as that struggle led directly to the rise of fascism). The end of the war resolved the imperialist competition, but not the question of communism. The US immediately turned around and started giving the European fascists guns, money and power after they no longer posed an expansionist threat, because fascists were still the most staunch anti communists. Again, this is why the soviets executed fascist war criminals, and the west didn’t even prosecute most of them. They became allies instead. It foreshadowed the west’s willingness to support the most brutal right wingers elsewhere around the world for the rest of the century to choke out any resistance to western neocolonial domination.
I see how you haven't responded in any meaningful way to my broader point that your "evil russians" statement about cold war military equipment is dumb as shit. But I get the sense you think there is someone scoring this debate and that you get a point for being a clever boy. Great job. I concede. Later.
The enemy is both strong and weak at the same time. Russians are simultaneously cowardly, repulsive and primitive (and evil, according to you), while also being barely held at bay because their innate savage brutality lets them ignore casualties, but like in an evil way, not the good heroic way we ignore casulaties when we drive our tanks headfirst into minefields. Gotcha.
Losing multiple cities to a tiny domestic invading force of mercenaries after completely losing control of said force due to lack of command discipline, and finally only being able to force them to disband by threatening the families of the mercenaries involved isn’t exactly a sign of strength, though, is it? It’s not exactly what we’d expect of a professional modern military.
It would be like if Erik Prince took his Blackwater army and started marching on Washington, capturing towns along the way, and the US army was helpless to stop them until the American government threatened to hunt down and kill the family members of Blackwater mercenaries.
That would be considered unusual, and not really a sign of political or military strength.
If Erik Prince marched Blackwater through some American cities and -- instead of sending the U.S. military to start a hot war on its own soil -- American leadership pressured Prince and Blackwater to go home, would you be calling the president weak for not turning Virginia into a battlefield?
I would think American leadership completely dysfunctional if they allowed that situation to occur. If they did not have enough command authority to trust that the US military wouldn’t confront Prince with immediate and overwhelming force when ordered, the US would be a laughingstock. The scenario is borderline unimaginable in a developed country with anything resembling a modern political infrastructure.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Russia. I was originally trained as a Sovietologist, when that was still a thing you could be an -ologist of. I could talk for hours about strategic weapons systems and Russian prep for NBC warfare and what the politics in the Kremlin were like under the troika approach and why the fascistic tendencies of Putin in rejecting Russian political history in favor of personal enrichment and plundering the nation have irrevocably broken Russian politics.
But that’s for another day. Putin responded the way dictators in developing nations do, not like someone who actually has command and control over their modern military forces. I mean, it’s a Russian tradition to threaten the families of people who publicly disagree with leadership. In the US, the forces brought to bear against Blackwater’s attempted putsch would have been so overwhelming that his own men would have arrested him. But as much as I hate Blackwater and think Prince should probably be in prison for war crimes, their cadre was recruited from a different class of people than Wagner.
the US military wouldn’t confront Prince with immediate and overwhelming force
You realize that's the worst-case scenario of the incident we're talking about, right? A sane leader would want to avoid starting a pitched battle in their backyard at all costs, and that's entirely independent of speculation about control over the military.
The scenario is borderline unimaginable in a developed country with anything resembling a modern political infrastructure.
We had a half-assed putsch of our own not even three years ago.
A sane leader would want to avoid starting a pitched battle…
A competent government would have prevented it from occurring. The IS government is hardly a model of efficiency, and that goes double for the military. However, it doesn’t happen here because it’s not something that’s organizationally enabled. Blackwater would be slaughtered in hours, for instance. I absolutely hate Blackwater, I think Prince is a fascist just like Prigo who would absolutely pull a Wagner if he thought he could. He knows he’s better off using bribes to gain power and wealth.
And I wouldn’t call J6 a putsch if we’re using that term in context to describe a military invasion by heavily armed forces gone rogue. But even if we do, the point we are discussing is that it is characteristic of a crap-tier government to be unable to put it down. Trump left the US government almost unable to put down a riot that he invoked and that consisted of a few thousand angry but mostly unarmed rednecks. Again, it was on a different scale, but once a more competent government was in place we saw a thousand arrests, not a threat to kill the families of the J6 rioters. It was a planned violent coup, but the plan was absolute shit because the planners are absolute idiots.
I don't understand the logic here. When the putsch occured and then ignomously fizzled out, I saw Putin as weak for letting Pringles walk out with a (relative) slap on the wrist. Taking Prigo out of the picture was overdue. Obviously, anyone would feel threatened by an semi-autonomous mercenary army, so removing its leadership and breaking it up is just a rational course of action that probably should have been done sooner from that POV
If they took him out before the deal was made sure, this soon after just shows weakness and a lack of credibility. They did the equivalent to getting into a bar fight, talking it out instead and then in front of every one sucker punching the other guy.
you know you don't have to forcibly try to interpret every event as a sign of Russian weakness
Truly. The mental gymnastics are impressive sometimes.
They were losing a war to a bunch of tractors and their flagship was sunk by a country without a navy.
It's not Russian weakness, it's Russian stupidity.
Didn’t realize those billions in aid were for tractors.
They stopped Russia with tractors.
Now they're pushing them back with real gear.
Jokerfication: when you kind of pity someone for being this propagandized, but laugh at them because it's pretty funny
Yes... I am the propagandized one.
Not the rural poor being marched off to die for half the price of a lada they'll never receive for an oligarch's pride.
All I can say is: Please, PLEASE! Make sure they keep marching.
You claim they started with tractors. This is utter nonsense; the AFU started the war as a legitimate military, especially after it took the decade following the Minsk agreements to arm up in anticipation of this war.
You also claim they are pushing Russia back despite the front not moving appreciably in the past year, even during the latest vaunted counteroffensive.
Remember, libs dont know anything about the context pre-war. It was all Putins desire to conquer ukraine.
Russia used to call itself the 2nd strongest military on Earth.
Now they're clearly the 2nd strongest military in Ukraine. And they're sliding down.
You might not understand this, but they literally only survived because everyone was terrified of them, 'Crazy Ivan' who snaps and does something stupid.
That illusion SHATTERED with the failure to take Kyiv, it shattered and Europe's fear turned to rage, rage at being intimidated for decades by a clearly broken joke of a power.
Until last year Russia wasn't worth our interest, there was nothing there of value or threat, it was a far away, annoying country but it was someone else's problem.
Now, Europe wants to watch them burn for fun.
If they hadn't invaded Ukraine they would have been able to hold this illusion for decades more while the oligarchs continued to rob the country to deposit into British banks, but now, Russia is a threat that needs to be dealt with.
Fortunately, it's not much of a threat, and this shouldn't take too long, the only reason it's taking this long right now is because we can only help indirectly through Ukraine.
But Russia is stupid, hopefully they'll do something Russian and pick a fight with the rest of NATO, because that's just what they do.
Delusions like this are sending Ukranians to pointless deaths right now.
The worst part is you will never stop to consider the implications of being so wrong on this when the war is finally resolved (with Russia and Ukraine in basically the same territories as now). Instead, you'll toss this one in the "history" pile with Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc., you know, the wars where you tell yourself you would have seen through the propaganda had you witnessed it in real time. Then you'll cheerlead the next war because It's A Good One This Time.
Delusions like "a 3 hour special military operation"?
Yeah, I'm the one with delusions, not the country that's shooting itself in the dick, and literally assassinated several of its citizens in this post without any due process whatsoever.
Yes, you have deluded yourself into thinking Russia said this. I guess reddit said Russia said it, so that's basically the same thing, right?
And tell me more about your thoughts on countries that assassinate their own citizens without due process. What kind of countries do that?
https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks/
Besides the issue of not being able to verify this was actually said, "if I wanted to I could take Kiev in two weeks" is a lot different from "this entire operation will be over in three hours." "If I wanted to" in fact implies taking Kiev was not a goal, which aligns with it not being officially stated as a goal.
3 hour tour is an old English idiom, I can understand if it's unfamiliar to you.
You put it in quotes and called it a special military op instead of a tour, so it was a little bit obfuscated
Edit: not that you meant to, of course, but it is what it is
As an aside, I think Putin was probably right, but under the condition that he carpet bombs multiple major cities from the first available moment. The war is brutal, but Russia has not been carpet-bombing for a litany of reasons (and it is good that they aren't)
its hilarious people who goad putin for not waging war like america does, which is just to kill everyone without consideration
Lmao so now you're claiming Putin was using some old English idiom in a private conversation with a Portuguese politician? Then said politician quoted Putin as saying a different phrase?
Truly wonderful, the mind of a liberal is.
HA. Sometimes I think people forget how time works. That we did not watch russia make these statements in real time and somehow reddit would come into it as if its mere existence is an augment.
So link the statement
Here you go to start:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903
Parts to note:
"I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case."
And the words "Take Kiev" are to be found...where?
How do you demilitarize a nation? After invading part of it?
Maybe take the capital and force change?
deleted by creator
I hope they don't because that would in all likelihood escalate to nuclear war.
'ukraine is totally winning' he continues to say as 33% of ukraine remains occupied by russia
Russia is 5x the size of Ukraine, and called itself the 2nd most powerful army on the planet.
Now it's the second most powerful army in Ukraine.
You're bragging after they got their ass handed to them by their version of Canadians.
no ones bragging here, the material reality of the situation is ukraines casualities are 3:1 and russia remains in control of the conflict and where the lines are; every ukranian advancement recently has come at heavy cost
That's not even close to true, unless you count civilians, which isn't surprising because they're literally fighting in their country.
So yes, be proud, Russia has butchered more civilians!
2 more weeks to crimea
deleted by creator
Consider how much of that is just tundra.
population numbers do you understand them
Well by the conditions the russian federation placed 18 months ago would mean that yes Ukraine is winning. The fact the front lines are static does not mean what you think it does.
And what were those conditions Russia stated as its aims at the beginning of the war?
The return of Ukraine in its entirety to the russian nation for one.
That was never a stated (or likely even an unstated) goal of Russia.
Yes it was stated many times. The broadcasts should still be around if you want to check.
Should take you no time at all to source your claim, then.
Sure, would you like russian state media or a 3rd party?
Either
Did you get a reply? I'm also curious.
I did not.
There is now a reply. I don't want to shock you, so make sure you're sitting down: in no way does the source support the view that Russia sought:
Here is the quote, to save you scrolling up:
A lying liberal, what a shock
Let's see whatever you got
Sorry I replied to the wrong comment, my bad.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903 Parts to note:
“I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case.”
That's what you claimed as one of Russia's war goals. You can see the excerpt you quoted isn't anything like that, right?
I'm not even trying to do some sick own or anything. You do see the difference between the stated aims and the propaganda circulating about "Russia wants to conquer the whole of Ukraine," don't you?
Why bother lying if you're going to debunk your own lie?
why should I give one shit about what russians goals where at the start of the war, the reality is its a meat grinder and the location of said meat grinder requires ukraine to move through it to advance, russia are setting the terms of this conflict and are in control.
Why have you gave one shit indeed, its not like that was the whole reason to invade or anything.
According to the stated russian objectives they have already lost this conflict, time will tell if Ukraine also looses.
I dont care about either sides goals because im not naive enough to buy into military propoganda, which the goals are.
During a war nothing either side says matters, you fatally misunderstand what happens to the media when a war breaks out, it just becomes another instrument of war, and as such nothing can be trusted but the satalite footage of where the war is and boots on the ground reports of people there, everything else is bullshit.
Ok please enlighten me on the winning condition for russia to end this conflict in their favour. No need for "military propoganda" just how does this end in your mind?
with a peace agreement
Ok, so what does that entail? I don't think you can just jump on TV and call peace. Ukraine has stated many times that they will not agree to any peace deal without the boarders going back to 2014, russia has stated that will not fly.
Even if you assume its a full on meat grinder for both sides, how does russia win in this situation? They claimed this military operation was to de-milliteraze Ukraine, the opposite has happened. They claimed this military operation was to put a stop to NATO expansion, the opposite has happened. They claimed this military operation was to protect the Donbas people, now they are the group who has suffered the largest casualties in this conflict. They claimed this military operation was to ensure the russian people prosperity and security, the opposite has happened.
what it entails are the borders freezing and everyone getting bored of sending 17 year olds through minefields
east ukraine will never be part of ukraine again, do you really think there is a going back now over a million people have died?
That is my point, there is no going back. Even if Ukraine before this was on shaky ground as a nation they are now determined to fight on and on and on. russia also has no credibility as shown today, and this has been stated many times by Ukraine that any treaty with russia is worth less then the paper it is printed on.
So I ask again, how does russia get anyone to show up and sign anything? How do they force peace?
Ukraine are forced to the table when the west stops sending them money, which I wager will be within a year.
That at least is an answer, and while I don't think it will happen (the collective west is doing to well from this) I do appreciate an honest attempt.
Most of the collective west is currently undergoing a thinly veiled reccession and electing more and more unstable forms of government, like the neo-nazi gov of italy, the shitshow that is UK politics (which is doing worse economically than russia, a country at war) and the clown parade that is the american govs complete inability to do anything for its own people.
There is already talk of pulling aid from Ukraine in many EU states like Austria and the US is starting to pivot towards Taiwan and has been calling this recent push 'Ukraines last chance', which they are admitting is failing.
The paymasters are calling time.
Yeah, I don't see it what with the re armament of most of these western countries. There does not seem to be a lack of last gen equipment to send.
there is no re-armament, none of the western ecomonies are geared for war, only the american military is and they are done sharing there surplus.
all that the west had to give was what it could afford to give away from its reserves without crippling there own defence sectors, russia has a active war ecomony, the west does not.
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/ukraine-and-the-eclipse-of-pacifism/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2023/01/13/commentary/japan-commentary/japan-rearmament/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-02/europe-s-peace-dividend-is-over-why-rearmament-is-not-that-easy
There is no war in ba sing se
cltr+f'd 'aid' on your first article, no results (other than it hitting other words with aid in it)
that article is literally just about the military industrial complex being spun up in western europe instead of shit like housing lmao, nowhere does it suggest that ukraine will be receiving any of that, only that the money will be going to 'defence', this is not a war ecomony and I suspect you dont know what that is.
furthermore I suspect most of that money will be spent replenishing all of the things they just gave away, you realize
Yes, they are in support of the western world rearming. Nothing to do with aid.
the western world will be rearming, just not ukraine
Yes, that is what is happening if the budgets and contracts are to be believed.
pushin em back 15 miles is good for you?
Do you know how many people pointlessly died for nothing?
were? so you admit that Russia is winning?
besides, this is not what this thread is about, go cope to someone who cares
No, they were losing to tractors, and Moskva was sunk without a navy.
Now they're getting real gear and training to play.
The only thing Russia ever wins are Darwin awards. Fucking being proud of almost hurting a country a fraction of your size right next door, like the US being proud of conquering Ottawa.
Say hi to those F-16s for me.
I'm sure they'll be just as effective as the Leopards, the ghost of kieyiev will destroy the entire Russian army
They don't need a ghost of Kyiv, they know the ultimate weakness of all Russians:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/13hcf63/ukrainians_allegedly_dropped_bottles_of_vodka_at/
You guys are going to suffer, and I would feel bad if you hadn't started this whole nightmare.
All of Europe hates Russia with an all-consuming passion, except sometimes Serbia.
And... that's where you live! That's like all my neighbors thinking I'm a piece of shit and me saying "Oh yeah, well there are people in North Korea who don't hate me!"
I live in Europe and this
is just bullshit my guy
Really really not.
They're the violent drunk who always ruins the party but invites themselves anyway.
Haha damn should go tell that one in Iraq, you just hate who you're told to hate
Doesn't make it true, your ass is not a source
That's the English.
name every person in Europe then or else I'm assuming you're making things up
wrong, guess again
Enlighten us then, we are not guessing.
"please send me your location and full legal name"
See this is why no one can take you people as anything but a joke. Multiple people have asked for your opinion, position, argument, or any thing that would allow someone to seriously discuss anything, but you just reply with a joke, meme or provocation. What inside joke is this law enforcement agent from another country have to do with anything?
respectfully, I'm not here for serious discussions
Fair enough, can we ask you keep the light trolling to the less serious posts?
yes
I love you
We're literally dumping decades old hardware on them just so we can keep justify buying more F-35s.
I agree.
And I'm fine with this.
We built those to fight evil Russians, they should get their chance.
At what point do you realize that you have transformed into the jingoistic goobers who were cheerleading the Iraq War during the W. years?
ah, there's the fascist lurking within every liberal. you should follow your leader
Not that you have shame? But this post is literally about putin assassinating a citizen of his in cold blood with no trial alongside several other innocent bystanders.
And you tried to use the word fascist to someone on the internet.
The people that died were fascists and Mercs, why do you care how they died? Do you hate Russia or not? This was a truly successful denazification action if you wanna get silly with it.
“Evil Russians.” Jesus Christ. As if the West did not rehabilitate European fascists immediately after WW2 and end up on the side of imperialism in every conflict around the world for the rest of the century and beyond. Many of which they themselves instigated. Get a fucking grip.
You seem to have missed that whole ussr bit
Definitely did not miss that. Whatever you think about the USSR, you cannot, without grotesque distortions of history, say that they rehabilitated European fascism. They executed nazis while the western powers were giving them citizenship, jobs, money, and weapons. And if you think soviet efforts to support revolutionary movements around the globe were “imperialism,” I’m not sure what to tell you besides please read a book.
Osoaviakhim was like a fever dream for you?
Lol. Those people were basically brought over at gunpoint as war reparations. You think that’s the same thing as paper clip and gladio?
Are you under the impression that the scientists moved to the US were given a choice?
Also, I don't really see how Gladio ties into this
How do you not see how gladio ties into this? It was basically the US changing sides in a war in Europe that never really ended. WW2 was about competition between imperial powers, and communism versus capitalism (as that struggle led directly to the rise of fascism). The end of the war resolved the imperialist competition, but not the question of communism. The US immediately turned around and started giving the European fascists guns, money and power after they no longer posed an expansionist threat, because fascists were still the most staunch anti communists. Again, this is why the soviets executed fascist war criminals, and the west didn’t even prosecute most of them. They became allies instead. It foreshadowed the west’s willingness to support the most brutal right wingers elsewhere around the world for the rest of the century to choke out any resistance to western neocolonial domination.
I see how I've given you an escape with the second question. I'm sorry you needed it
I see how you haven't responded in any meaningful way to my broader point that your "evil russians" statement about cold war military equipment is dumb as shit. But I get the sense you think there is someone scoring this debate and that you get a point for being a clever boy. Great job. I concede. Later.
Look up the US attack on Grenada
Or the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
The US could never conquer Ottowa
No, because unlike Russia, Canadians have balls.
The enemy is both strong and weak at the same time. Russians are simultaneously cowardly, repulsive and primitive (and evil, according to you), while also being barely held at bay because their innate savage brutality lets them ignore casualties, but like in an evil way, not the good heroic way we ignore casulaties when we drive our tanks headfirst into minefields. Gotcha.
Russia is a pointless joke.
We feared them, that was wrong.
Now they've proven how weak they are.
Uh huh
You are right, I don't have to.
Losing multiple cities to a tiny domestic invading force of mercenaries after completely losing control of said force due to lack of command discipline, and finally only being able to force them to disband by threatening the families of the mercenaries involved isn’t exactly a sign of strength, though, is it? It’s not exactly what we’d expect of a professional modern military.
It would be like if Erik Prince took his Blackwater army and started marching on Washington, capturing towns along the way, and the US army was helpless to stop them until the American government threatened to hunt down and kill the family members of Blackwater mercenaries.
That would be considered unusual, and not really a sign of political or military strength.
If Erik Prince marched Blackwater through some American cities and -- instead of sending the U.S. military to start a hot war on its own soil -- American leadership pressured Prince and Blackwater to go home, would you be calling the president weak for not turning Virginia into a battlefield?
hexbear emojis
I would think American leadership completely dysfunctional if they allowed that situation to occur. If they did not have enough command authority to trust that the US military wouldn’t confront Prince with immediate and overwhelming force when ordered, the US would be a laughingstock. The scenario is borderline unimaginable in a developed country with anything resembling a modern political infrastructure.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Russia. I was originally trained as a Sovietologist, when that was still a thing you could be an -ologist of. I could talk for hours about strategic weapons systems and Russian prep for NBC warfare and what the politics in the Kremlin were like under the troika approach and why the fascistic tendencies of Putin in rejecting Russian political history in favor of personal enrichment and plundering the nation have irrevocably broken Russian politics.
But that’s for another day. Putin responded the way dictators in developing nations do, not like someone who actually has command and control over their modern military forces. I mean, it’s a Russian tradition to threaten the families of people who publicly disagree with leadership. In the US, the forces brought to bear against Blackwater’s attempted putsch would have been so overwhelming that his own men would have arrested him. But as much as I hate Blackwater and think Prince should probably be in prison for war crimes, their cadre was recruited from a different class of people than Wagner.
You realize that's the worst-case scenario of the incident we're talking about, right? A sane leader would want to avoid starting a pitched battle in their backyard at all costs, and that's entirely independent of speculation about control over the military.
We had a half-assed putsch of our own not even three years ago.
A competent government would have prevented it from occurring. The IS government is hardly a model of efficiency, and that goes double for the military. However, it doesn’t happen here because it’s not something that’s organizationally enabled. Blackwater would be slaughtered in hours, for instance. I absolutely hate Blackwater, I think Prince is a fascist just like Prigo who would absolutely pull a Wagner if he thought he could. He knows he’s better off using bribes to gain power and wealth.
And I wouldn’t call J6 a putsch if we’re using that term in context to describe a military invasion by heavily armed forces gone rogue. But even if we do, the point we are discussing is that it is characteristic of a crap-tier government to be unable to put it down. Trump left the US government almost unable to put down a riot that he invoked and that consisted of a few thousand angry but mostly unarmed rednecks. Again, it was on a different scale, but once a more competent government was in place we saw a thousand arrests, not a threat to kill the families of the J6 rioters. It was a planned violent coup, but the plan was absolute shit because the planners are absolute idiots.
It's more like taking it outside then shooting them and their buddies in the face. Message sent