Dude you still don't stop worker exploitation, don't solve the contradiction of working and capitalist classes, don't end imperialism or colonialism (social democracy outsources exploitation to the third world), and just set up a future capitalist takeover and descent into neoliberal hell.
You really haven't read any theory. At all. Did you take one silly phrase and think you had something?! Your politics are immature and uninformed. Please read theory.
Socialism is my ideal, communism is my ideal, any world where the oppressed are free and the fascists, capitalists, and neoliberals are gulaged is my ideal
Did you think comrade stalin's name in my user was ironic? I'm a communist, through and through. Its not my fault my blood beats red and my heart is on the left.
Because they don't own the means of production. Socialism isn't just redirecting capital, it is about eliminating it and the ruling class. Profit sharing is a bandaid on the grand canyon; workers are still exploited by the capital class. Socialism is a completely and total shift so large and threatening to the ruling class that it can only happen through revolution, it's way bigger than sharing profits
how redirecting capital from the capital class to the working class is anything other than socialism.
Theres this concept, where the Capitalists are expropriated from and reproletarianized back into the working class whom in turn seize full control of the means of production and abolish the capitalist governments in order to build governments of/by/for the working class. Thats called building Socialism, and to do anything other than working towards the goal of liquidating the enemies of the working class is to do anything other than fighting for socialism.
Taking money from the rich and simply redistributing it a la your "profit sharing" does not solve the fundamental contradiction between the capitalist class and the working class as it does nothing to change the economic structure the two exist in opposition to each other. If nothing else. all you're advocating for is prolonging the existence of Capitalism and fighting against the interests of your own class by advocating for maintaining the cruel system of Capitalism but trying to disguise the worst visages it wears with smiley face emojis
No lol that's just welfare - something that can be done regardless of what economic system is in place. Now if you want a discussion on a contrastive analysis of the class dynamics of welfare under a Socialist and Capitalist system, that'd be an interesting topic to research into.
I think it's a whole field of research I'm not very familiar with. Personally, I'd start looking into the history of welfare in England a la the late feudal and emerging capitalist period of social welfare known as the "poor laws", seeing how they would develop into the more familiar contemporary welfare system of the UK, then delving into U.S history of welfare during the same period, and then examining the Tsarist Russian period and the Soviet period's welfare systems. But if you want to abbreviate that a bit then simply doing a contrasting analysis of social welfare of the U.S and the U.S.S.R in whatever period you desired to learn about.
Now in terms of what I know and can extrapolate off the top of my head, social welfare as broadly defined to include education, health, and social security under a socialist or capitalist system tend to wildly differ from one another in some aspects and in others - depending on states - appear similar.
On education, nearly all countries have some form of compulsory education that tend to be state funded to a certain ages with variations being dictated by their own national standards. An example of this could be how the U.S and R.O.K has free public school from the ages 5 to 19 with university being individually funded whereas Japan and the PRC has free public education from the ages 6 to 15 with high school onwards being individually funded. (Reasons why so will have to be researched in-depth). There's also other minor variations such as the subsidization of aspects of compulsory education. With the exception of Sweden, Finland, Estonia and India the entire world has do not have universal free school lunch in compulsory education as funded by their State. This means it is left to the prerogative to every level below the State from province, to the city, to the school, etc. on the question of free/paid school lunch in compulsory education. Similar stuff can be looked into for school supplies, mandatory uniforms, education materials, etc.
On health, it's also a mixed bag. The question of analysis can simply range from the availability of universal healthcare to the level of depth of funding for aspects of it depending on the standards desired by differing States. One can look at the ratio of doctors and other medical positions to the number of citizens, how healthcare is distributed, and so forth. This is more so outside my knowledge and probably needs someone more familiar with the field to examine and explain details on.
On social security, which may be broader than the first two, range from examining unemployment, senior citizen, housing, food, or a plethora more subjects as it's as broad in scope as the society it's directed towards. One can examine how differently houselessness is addressed in differing states as houselessness and combatting it tend to fall under multiple forms of social security. A simple barometer would be analyzing whether or not the state recognizes economic rights of its citizens and seeks to pursue those rights for its citizens. On this regard I can throw in this link called "China’s Employment Policies and Strategies" By Yan DI, Research fellow of the Chinese Academy of Labour and Social Security, Ministry of Labour and Social Security, P.R.China.
I'd primarily argue the main distinction of welfare under a socialist or capitalist system is in how each system performs its duties on social security and whether or not the economic rights of the worker are the primary concern of the State or not. From that point onwards it becomes the tedious task of administration of building the socio-economic structures to address the needs of social security.
thats because you're a dipshit idealist with your head up your ass in the clouds fantasizing about make-believe shit and denouncing everything that isn't as ephemeral and pure as a thought. Your entire ideology is that of theatrics that thinks nothing of concrete human beings, not the concrete workers of flesh and blood who are living and struggling in your country - or any country for that matter - but is an ideology devoid of materialist common sense.
You're a liberal phrasemonger - Advocating for things and using phrases are Leftist, but in practice it turns out that they are aiding the enemies of the working class. You talk like you're on the Left but in actuality come out on the Right.
A tankie is a hardline ML in your opinion yes? Did you know most "tankies" read theory to better understand the world and are definitely more knowledgeable than "socialists" (by which you mean libs who aren't actually socialist like yourself)
I'm not really in the business of sourcing things to users from an instance that is basically a Sealioning factory.
Ultimately, I will get told I don't understand economics until I've read all three volumes of Das Kapital. Ironically, it's no different that libertarians saying you don't understand economics unless you've read the works of Milton Friedman, or more importantly, Ayn Rand.
"When you make a contentious claim and someone asks for a source that's them doing a logical fallacy"
Ultimately, I will get told I don't understand economics until I've read all three volumes of Das Kapital. Ironically, it's no different that libertarians saying you don't understand economics unless you've read the works of Milton Friedman, or more importantly, Ayn Rand.
Okay, except as part of the background of growing up in the imperial core youre already exposed to their ideology so you don't need to read it. You're not really exposed to Marxism here and you need a background to understand it.
I agree capital isn't the best starting point but for some reason anti-communists love trying to argue economics when they know nothing about economics, so thats when capital generally gets brought up and its become a meme from that.
What to you is a tankie. Are they in the room with us right now? Anyway I'm disengaging because you're clearly a debatebro (and lib) who can't argue in good faith. but I'll leave you a link to hexbears policy posting bulletins
I agree. This is why I caution more nuanced takes on economics. A lot of people on Hexbear think a revolution occuring in the US is going to look like 1917, but really it's going to be more like 1923. Take a look at the closest we have been to a "revolution" since 1776.
The question is just how bad things are going to get before socialism happens. It might get to fascists killing people like me in the streets beforehand, but fascism will not resolve the contradictions of capitalism and will not prevent the inevitability of socialism.
This is a human problem that cannot seem to be fixed. It feels like a simulation how history is constantly stuck in the same power cycles without sustained improvement.
There are innocent people who have been conditioned to think the status quo is the best we have, who themselves are victims of misinformation. The only left-wing revolutions I've seen in history involves purging these people from society, which eventually creates the left wing gestapos, like the NKVD. These organizations persist to squash dissidents and millions of deaths later these countries revert to capitalism or quasi-capitalism due to a failed system.
I don't know what the best answer to it is, but there are no quick fixes.
As someone who knew people who were in nazi concentration camps, Im done talking with you about this. You're wrong and you're being incredibly offensive.
Both organizations participated in overwhelming amount of extrajudicial killings.
Of who?
Incidentally, both organizations also purged socialists.
Arresting someone for a crime who happens to be a socialist is exactly the same as purging socialists for being socialists because you think they're secret agents of the Jews.
This is the laziest equivocation I've ever seen and you should eat a pile of leaves.
Again, coming from a German instance you should be more mindful. Equating a fascist regime and a socialist state is actually a fascist talking point disguised as centrism.
Extrajudicial killings are definitely not good when you just look at it in a vacuum/without context and noone argues in favor of that. Not on hexbear at least.
That said, looking at things without context is not dialectical aka lib. And the context here being WW2..
no, because you're literally just being fucking stupid
No, it's literally socialism 101 so I wouldn't expect a tankie to understand.
I've read all three volumes of capital around a month ago because I had an autistic urge to do it
tell me with full seriousness that you've even glanced at it
My dog has been exposed to more theory via audiobooks than that lib
Literally some basic engels socialism utopian and scientific would throw this boy for a loop
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cries
This is the worst attempt at Sealioning that I have ever seen.
Please tell me with full seriousness how redirecting capital from the capital class to the working class is anything other than socialism.
DUDE YOU ARE LITERALLY JUST MAKING UP SOCIAL DEMOCRACY AGAIN
you definitely have not read a single page of marxist theory
Social democracy sounds great, sign me up.
Dude you still don't stop worker exploitation, don't solve the contradiction of working and capitalist classes, don't end imperialism or colonialism (social democracy outsources exploitation to the third world), and just set up a future capitalist takeover and descent into neoliberal hell.
You really haven't read any theory. At all. Did you take one silly phrase and think you had something?! Your politics are immature and uninformed. Please read theory.
Ok let me know how your method works out because right now it's neither.
The method has worked, is working, and will work
you won't see it though, I hope to kill people like you
If course you would, like a good little authoritarian.
In my ideal society I'd give people like you the freedom you deserve.
Only a person with no moral compass would disagree with the banning of such terrible ideologies
My ideal society is real, yours never has been
Pick one. It's either real or ideal, therefore fantasy.
Socialism is my ideal, communism is my ideal, any world where the oppressed are free and the fascists, capitalists, and neoliberals are gulaged is my ideal
Did you think comrade stalin's name in my user was ironic? I'm a communist, through and through. Its not my fault my blood beats red and my heart is on the left.
It is your fault, actually.
communism is in our nature, to deny it is to deny your humanity
Oh so you're into dehumanizing too.
She literally didn't
Well if that's not part of my belief system then I'm apparently not human. Probably explains why she wanted to kill me.
Literally not what she said though.
Regardless of whatever word games you want to play, you have to admit wanting to kill someone is the ultimate way of dehumanizing someone.
That was not accepted on our end either. In this particular instance however you're the one playing games.
No, she said she wanted to kill me because I support democratic socialism.
games
How so?
Low energy, I'm done.
I'll work on improving society in achievable ways so you guys can save your energy debating whether Mao or Stalin was better at crushing dissidents.
Damn you're right, guess I gotta give her credit for deciding to be cool as fuck
No one gives a shit about your ideal society, because we don't live in your imagination land.
Because they don't own the means of production. Socialism isn't just redirecting capital, it is about eliminating it and the ruling class. Profit sharing is a bandaid on the grand canyon; workers are still exploited by the capital class. Socialism is a completely and total shift so large and threatening to the ruling class that it can only happen through revolution, it's way bigger than sharing profits
But you have to agree it’s a lot closer to socialism than the status quo.
No, it is the status quo. What you're describing is capitalism. It is not closer to socialism.
Please link me to the careers page of these plentiful jobs that engage in substantive profit sharing for all working class employees.
Profits go to the capital class currently, that's the whole problem, right?
You've never heard the term "stock option"?
Lol I guess you people never have had actual jobs if you believe that is remotely common for the working class.
Hmm, I wonder if there might be a reason they aren't common for the working class.
So it's not the status quo like you actually said. Great talk buddy.
Where did I say that?
Sorry, it was your Hexbear friend. You all sound the same, hard to keep track.
Lol, moron.
That's exactly what I would say if someone thought stock options were available to the working class.
They are.
Lol, moron.
You sure went from "it's socialism 101, you stupid tankie!" to "well it's a marginal improvement on the status quo..." really quickly.
It's actually quite a massive departure from the status quo, really.
K. Doesn't change my point.
It quite literally does, the operative word being "marginal"
It quite literally doesn't, remove the word marginal and the point remains the same.
Ok
Theres this concept, where the Capitalists are expropriated from and reproletarianized back into the working class whom in turn seize full control of the means of production and abolish the capitalist governments in order to build governments of/by/for the working class. Thats called building Socialism, and to do anything other than working towards the goal of liquidating the enemies of the working class is to do anything other than fighting for socialism.
Taking money from the rich and simply redistributing it a la your "profit sharing" does not solve the fundamental contradiction between the capitalist class and the working class as it does nothing to change the economic structure the two exist in opposition to each other. If nothing else. all you're advocating for is prolonging the existence of Capitalism and fighting against the interests of your own class by advocating for maintaining the cruel system of Capitalism but trying to disguise the worst visages it wears with smiley face emojis
Ok. But you have to agree it's a lot closer to socialism than the status quo.
No lol that's just welfare - something that can be done regardless of what economic system is in place. Now if you want a discussion on a contrastive analysis of the class dynamics of welfare under a Socialist and Capitalist system, that'd be an interesting topic to research into.
That does sound super interesting, any thoughts immediately spring to mind?
I think it's a whole field of research I'm not very familiar with. Personally, I'd start looking into the history of welfare in England a la the late feudal and emerging capitalist period of social welfare known as the "poor laws", seeing how they would develop into the more familiar contemporary welfare system of the UK, then delving into U.S history of welfare during the same period, and then examining the Tsarist Russian period and the Soviet period's welfare systems. But if you want to abbreviate that a bit then simply doing a contrasting analysis of social welfare of the U.S and the U.S.S.R in whatever period you desired to learn about.
Now in terms of what I know and can extrapolate off the top of my head, social welfare as broadly defined to include education, health, and social security under a socialist or capitalist system tend to wildly differ from one another in some aspects and in others - depending on states - appear similar.
On education, nearly all countries have some form of compulsory education that tend to be state funded to a certain ages with variations being dictated by their own national standards. An example of this could be how the U.S and R.O.K has free public school from the ages 5 to 19 with university being individually funded whereas Japan and the PRC has free public education from the ages 6 to 15 with high school onwards being individually funded. (Reasons why so will have to be researched in-depth). There's also other minor variations such as the subsidization of aspects of compulsory education. With the exception of Sweden, Finland, Estonia and India the entire world has do not have universal free school lunch in compulsory education as funded by their State. This means it is left to the prerogative to every level below the State from province, to the city, to the school, etc. on the question of free/paid school lunch in compulsory education. Similar stuff can be looked into for school supplies, mandatory uniforms, education materials, etc.
On health, it's also a mixed bag. The question of analysis can simply range from the availability of universal healthcare to the level of depth of funding for aspects of it depending on the standards desired by differing States. One can look at the ratio of doctors and other medical positions to the number of citizens, how healthcare is distributed, and so forth. This is more so outside my knowledge and probably needs someone more familiar with the field to examine and explain details on.
On social security, which may be broader than the first two, range from examining unemployment, senior citizen, housing, food, or a plethora more subjects as it's as broad in scope as the society it's directed towards. One can examine how differently houselessness is addressed in differing states as houselessness and combatting it tend to fall under multiple forms of social security. A simple barometer would be analyzing whether or not the state recognizes economic rights of its citizens and seeks to pursue those rights for its citizens. On this regard I can throw in this link called "China’s Employment Policies and Strategies" By Yan DI, Research fellow of the Chinese Academy of Labour and Social Security, Ministry of Labour and Social Security, P.R.China.
I'd primarily argue the main distinction of welfare under a socialist or capitalist system is in how each system performs its duties on social security and whether or not the economic rights of the worker are the primary concern of the State or not. From that point onwards it becomes the tedious task of administration of building the socio-economic structures to address the needs of social security.
Holy shit comrade, this fucking rocks! Favoriting this immediately so I can re-read this when I'm more sober
I guess in your universe there's no true socialism, eh?
Nope, the Soviet Union was Socialist. All other AES projects are also moving towards becoming socialist as well in their own distinctive manner.
It doesn't change you're a fucking liberal that thinks socialism is when you redistribute wealth without changing the existing economic system.
There are no pure economic systems that currently exist or have ever existed.
I wouldn't expect users from Hexbear to understand nuance.
thats because you're a dipshit idealist with your head
up your assin the clouds fantasizing about make-believe shit and denouncing everything that isn't as ephemeral and pure as a thought. Your entire ideology is that of theatrics that thinks nothing of concrete human beings, not the concrete workers of flesh and blood who are living and struggling in your country - or any country for that matter - but is an ideology devoid of materialist common sense.You're a liberal phrasemonger - Advocating for things and using phrases are Leftist, but in practice it turns out that they are aiding the enemies of the working class. You talk like you're on the Left but in actuality come out on the Right.
Ok this has been a lot of fun, thanks.
🌽
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That's not whataboutism, that was the original argument.
You guys are the worst trolls in the fediverse.
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you are now my queen
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I love your name btw
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Ok I'll keep that in mind.
A tankie is a hardline ML in your opinion yes? Did you know most "tankies" read theory to better understand the world and are definitely more knowledgeable than "socialists" (by which you mean libs who aren't actually socialist like yourself)
No, but one of the top posts in the "tankiverse" recently was saying that places like North Korea are the bastions of freedom.
More nuanced takes on communism, etc are done instances other than Hexbear and Lemmygrad.
Why does your opinion on the DPRK align with propaganda from a country that killed 20 percent of all Koreans to prevent a unified democratic Korea?
Why do you act like any one right of Karl Marx must be a dunce who blindly supports the global status quo?
You're acting like it when you repeat American attitudes about the dprk.
Sometimes it be that way.
Source that isnt aligned with US interests?
I'm not really in the business of sourcing things to users from an instance that is basically a Sealioning factory.
Ultimately, I will get told I don't understand economics until I've read all three volumes of Das Kapital. Ironically, it's no different that libertarians saying you don't understand economics unless you've read the works of Milton Friedman, or more importantly, Ayn Rand.
"When you make a contentious claim and someone asks for a source that's them doing a logical fallacy"
Okay, except as part of the background of growing up in the imperial core youre already exposed to their ideology so you don't need to read it. You're not really exposed to Marxism here and you need a background to understand it.
I agree capital isn't the best starting point but for some reason anti-communists love trying to argue economics when they know nothing about economics, so thats when capital generally gets brought up and its become a meme from that.
Have you considered not being or doing that?
Link me to a nuanced take please
What to you is a tankie. Are they in the room with us right now? Anyway I'm disengaging because you're clearly a debatebro (and lib) who can't argue in good faith. but I'll leave you a link to hexbears policy posting bulletins
A tankie is a supporter of an authoritarian country that either is, or presents itself as, a left wing.
Pretty unambiguous definition.
You need to define authoritarian in a way that doesn't include basically every country for that to be a reasonable definition.
Jails dissidents without a modicum of due process.
Yeah it's a problem in a lot of countries, welcome to the "status quo".
So all countries then.
So your definition of tankie is "a supporter of country that either is, or presents itself, as left wing."
I thought it was implied it meant socialist or communist.
What does?
The post you responded to...
Which part?
Ya know what, nevermind.
🌽
Thank you for acknowledging that it is basically useless because it is just a thing states do.
Also fascists and other reactionary dissidents should be repressed when they try to organize.
I agree. This is why I caution more nuanced takes on economics. A lot of people on Hexbear think a revolution occuring in the US is going to look like 1917, but really it's going to be more like 1923. Take a look at the closest we have been to a "revolution" since 1776.
The question is just how bad things are going to get before socialism happens. It might get to fascists killing people like me in the streets beforehand, but fascism will not resolve the contradictions of capitalism and will not prevent the inevitability of socialism.
This is a human problem that cannot seem to be fixed. It feels like a simulation how history is constantly stuck in the same power cycles without sustained improvement.
There are innocent people who have been conditioned to think the status quo is the best we have, who themselves are victims of misinformation. The only left-wing revolutions I've seen in history involves purging these people from society, which eventually creates the left wing gestapos, like the NKVD. These organizations persist to squash dissidents and millions of deaths later these countries revert to capitalism or quasi-capitalism due to a failed system.
I don't know what the best answer to it is, but there are no quick fixes.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
As someone who knew people who were in nazi concentration camps, Im done talking with you about this. You're wrong and you're being incredibly offensive.
Turns out you were serious. Perhaps you should log off the internet and open a history book, friend.
Maybe you should listen to the literal mainstream historical position instead of pop history.
The Gestapo and NKVD were both oppressive secret police organizations. Why is it controversial to say this?
I was genuinely trying to turn this into a good-faith debate and was going to note it as my first positive interaction with a Hexbear user.
One was opressing communists, ethnic and sexual minorities, one was opressing capitalists and other reactionaries
You equate the two...
Please look into the tolerance paradox
Coming from a German instance you should be more mindful
Both organizations participated in overwhelming amount of extrajudicial killings. Incidentally, both organizations also purged socialists.
Of who?
Arresting someone for a crime who happens to be a socialist is exactly the same as purging socialists for being socialists because you think they're secret agents of the Jews.
This is the laziest equivocation I've ever seen and you should eat a pile of leaves.
Again, coming from a German instance you should be more mindful. Equating a fascist regime and a socialist state is actually a fascist talking point disguised as centrism.
Extrajudicial killings are definitely not good when you just look at it in a vacuum/without context and noone argues in favor of that. Not on hexbear at least.
That said, looking at things without context is not dialectical aka lib. And the context here being WW2..
Yeah this is what I would say too if I didn't understand history.
Yeah this what I would say too if I only understood one version of history.