see linked post. I believe this would count as one of the examples given in the federation policy https://lemm.ee/post/401063 :
An instance which is knowingly spreading CSAM into the federated network
see linked post. I believe this would count as one of the examples given in the federation policy https://lemm.ee/post/401063 :
An instance which is knowingly spreading CSAM into the federated network
This is why I do not believe in free speech absolutism.
Nazi shit, pedo shit, etc. should not be tolerated and there is absolutely nothing wrong with silencing these sick fucks.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't? It's fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned but online you can always find people who agree with you and those people will always make their own echo chambers and isolate themselves
Only way on such a large scale is moderation but that's a never ending battle and requires a small group of people or single person deciding what's acceptable
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If that's how it worked we wouldn't have fascists everywhere right now.
True there are a lot of stupid people out there but if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
It's so cool how you solved racism in your head just now.
That's definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can't shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren't you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned online for being a Nazi or pedo?
I am infact quite happy to have as few Nazis and pedos in my corner of the internet as possible, just think it's inevitable they're going to be somewhere with the nature of self hosted platforms like lemmy
This thread is about lemm.ee, the instance your account is on, defederating from a Nazi pedo instance. That means not having them in your corner of the internet. Why are you arguing against this?
I'm not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the "free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable.
It's fairly obvious to 99% of people when it's things like Nazis and pedos but it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Lemmy instances having their own rules and defederating from those they don't like seems like the best solution provided there are enough of them that users can jump ship if they don't like the way they're run
Okay o' wise liberal of the lake. What are these "controversial topics"?
Please enlighten us and get to the fucking point.
Such as?
Pedophilia and Nazi shit are not acceptable. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Quit JAQing off and answer my questions motherfucker.
Human welfare as decided by the humans in question. If we agree that we would overall benefit from Nazis being cast out, then that is all that is needed to cast them out.
The Nazis can vote in their favor, be outvoted, and then be treated mercilessly by the majority if they cling to their fascism. It's really quite simple.
And if the system is one where the Nazis win such a contest, then debating about parliamentary bullshit is a waste of time because you are talking about a system where Nazis are a majority power. At that point, the system is something to oppose by whatever means necessary, not something to reform and critique like the Nazis give a shit what you think except to purge you.
it extremely doesn't. communities have standards -- they get to decide.
I'd extremely like to know what more controversial topics you have in mind
Great and if they retreat further and further into Nazi/Pedo instances instead of engaging with the criticism and condemnation of their views and actions then that just curates for us a list of people that need to be excised from society at large. Online or otherwise.
This creates a list of people that should be placed in reeducation programs post-revolution. I don't see a problem with it.
Why are you so worried about Nazi and pedo shit getting silenced? I am beginning to suspect you might have an ulterior motive here.
If you concentrate them all into one place they reinforce their own views and don't get told to stfu by others on the internet, the problem is this way they don't get silenced, just hidden
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
Okay so what is your alternative? Throw them into a pit and bury them? Let them continue to spread their virulent bigotry?
I think reeducation programs sounds pretty humane to me.
If you believe in the so-called "free marketplace of ideas" then you need some reeducation yourself honestly. Fucking look around you. Where has that brought you?
Also calling reeducation "dystopian" while the US prison slavery market exists is fucking rich.
You're basically also doing slavery apologia right now.
You literally cannot conceive of anything outside the hegemonic worldview of liberal capitalism that is being contested right now. You are doing the exact same retreat to an echo chamber that you decry, but the echo chamber is in your own head and the walls are these thought terminating cliches you keep regurgitating.
So are you going to actually reply to my question?
What are these controversial topics you are afraid of not being allowed to discuss?
Get to the fucking point.
Explain yourself or fuck off.
So what, it's better to have Nazis and pedos out in the open? Do you think you'll give them a West Wing speech and they'll magically realize the error of their ways? Nazis aren't looking for people to challenge their views.
Explain yourself mfer.
getting banned is silencing them, fool. it prevents them from recruiting more people. they can talk to themselves day in and day out but without fresh meat they can't grow. the lesson of the last decade is that deplatforming 100% works. your free speech bullshit is exactly how nazis cover for themselves. liberals clutching pearls about muh
just provides them a defense.
free speech for who, for what purpose, and at what cost? do you ever stop and think about the people harmed by the presence of the people you're JAQing off for?
everyone has a line past which they won't tolerate "free speech" -- if they were advocating for the murder of the people you love 0% chance you'd be pulling this shit. the problem is you feel safe and comfortable in the knowledge that they don't threaten you. you're comfortable with the bigotry, shielded by the bottomless chasm of your ignorance. wake up call: if they seize power, they will hurt you and everyone you love, just as much as the rest of us. you're not fucking safe.
They don't just get hidden, they get suppressed and repressed. Their views are less widespread and influential. They are more often ignored by the workings of power and economy. Shove the nazis into a hole and seal it up, good riddance.
They have always had their own platforms, using forum software and the like. They will use any free software regular people will use. They always had their own isolated corners of the internet.
So then the question is whether these people would cease to be nazis or pedophiles if only they interacted with "normal" people. Decades of that mindset have gone by and the answer is "no." They want tu be in normie spaces to convince others, they're not going to deradicalize like that. Deradicalization is hard, time consuming for volunteers, and rare, as well as rarely complete. And even if it were effective, it is unethical to demand the people they target be the ones to deradicalize them. Nobody here signed an agreement to be a nazi pedo's unpaid therapist.
Yes racism just corrects itself. That’s why there’s famously no racism happening anywhere
whoa
Racism has dramatically reduced in recent years, used to be people would make racist comments in casual conversation and nobody would care
The vast, vast majority of racism is not done through casual conversation. I hope you understand that.
True. That definitely can't stop it influencing people's decisions at least in the short term
I'd still like to think in the long term younger generations are less racist and would replace older ones stuck in their ways that currently hold all the power
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People still do that, it just depends on the company. Between this and some other comments, I think you are extrapolating far too much from your own anecdotal experiences.
Nah dude I just said that people should be prevented from spreading Nazi or Pedo shit and you come in here with your contrarian bullshit.
Free speech does not, and frankly should not exist.
You said something horrible in your implicit defense of Nazi and Pedo shit being allowed to be spread. Now you are getting shunned for it. How's that working out for you?
ah yes, the free market will fix it. the "marketplace of ideas."
gtfo
If this was true, racism would be eradicated. It must further be stated that, though many racists are very ignorant, ascribing racism fundamentally to "stupidity" is just as worthless as ascribing it to "evil". It is a moralizing account that cannot be usefully applied as systemic critique because it is all supposedly a matter of personal virtue.
People are racist as a strategy to prosper, first and foremost. It is not until you understand racism as a social strategy that you can fight it.
I can't say I do understand it as a social strategy, I would hazard a guess it's something like "if we make this group enemy #1, we can get lots of people rallied behind us and they won't pay attention to the horrible things we do"?
I think it's a bit ancillary but yes, one of the benefits for the racist is that by defining others as being part of the outgroup, they place themselves in the ingroup and thereby have people they can rely on with a common cause they both oppose (the flourishing of the minority group).
But probably the most concrete reason is economic (I was using "social" in its broadest sense), specifically that the brutal marginalization of minorities pushes them into the position of an underclass, whose labor value is the most exploited, meaning where ever the poor racist ends up in life, it is less likely to be there at that bottom rung, while the richer racists get cheap labor.
and if you kept doing it, would you be asked to leave? would your "free speech" be "violated" by exclusion from decent society? I'm struggling to see the contours of your argument, where exactly you draw the line between "censorship" and "social pressure" and how you imagine that ought to translate to online spaces?
What Saturday morning cartoon do you live in bro?
Shut up, nerd
Now let's see how they react to saying something horrible and getting shunned for it lol.
Oh wait now they're gonna complain about Hexbear bullies. Calling it now.
Flippin the tables on 'em. You love to see it.
I don't care who gets to decide as long as Nazism and pedophilia isn't tolerated
lmfao no you don't I hear people say horrible shit all the time and nobody speaks up because muh civility, or because the people they are saying it to are at their job and calling it out would be "political."
You have a child's understanding of the world.
I said Nazi shit and pedo shit should be silenced and you rush in here like "Ummm ACKSHUALLY"
Fuck off.
Put it to a vote, simple as. This "who watches the watcher?" bit neoliberals do is nothing but concern-trolling because they have been taught the purpose of the government is to protect property rights, wage war, and nothing more.
In all avenues of life and interaction, we should pursue the use of power by collective assent to improve our conditions, including by stamping out fascists and abusers with a mind not to "justice" but to protecting the people they would victimize.
Nah voting is overrated I will be the supreme chancellor and gatekeeper of what is allowed to be said online.
This is a joke of course but that would be better than whatever this weirdo is advocating.
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The entire model of federation is shunning. We are shunning them by defederating. We don't have to interact with them. You don't have to interact with them. You don't have to interact with us, and in fact you could decide to go join the pedos and nazis and nazi pedos on their instances. You won't, but on a technical level there is no central content moderator for all of the fediverse, only instances practicing free association and maybe cooperating to make that process easier.
But since you lack the authority to make us interact with those groups, you're left having to choose who you'll keep company with, and that'll have consequences as people don't like nazi or pedo apologists.
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Which is why Lemmy is a good system but I think that system is rather fragile because instances like lemmy.world could get the majority of the users, be absolute saints for a while so everyone gets comfortable and then influence the rest of the instances with threats of defederating
I guess considering there's no monetary gain from having more users that doesn't really work as well but still
It's me, I decide, and I decided nazism was bad a long time ago. You really need to get with the program dude.