see linked post. I believe this would count as one of the examples given in the federation policy https://lemm.ee/post/401063 :
An instance which is knowingly spreading CSAM into the federated network
I mean this is real free speech. We might find what they say and talk about horrible. But that’s what real free speech gets you
This is why I do not believe in free speech absolutism.
Nazi shit, pedo shit, etc. should not be tolerated and there is absolutely nothing wrong with silencing these sick fucks.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't? It's fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned but online you can always find people who agree with you and those people will always make their own echo chambers and isolate themselves
Only way on such a large scale is moderation but that's a never ending battle and requires a small group of people or single person deciding what's acceptable
if you say something horrible you get shunned
People are rational actors and naturally know that bad ideas are bad.If that's how it worked we wouldn't have fascists everywhere right now.
True there are a lot of stupid people out there but if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
That's definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can't shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren't you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned online for being a Nazi or pedo?
I am infact quite happy to have as few Nazis and pedos in my corner of the internet as possible, just think it's inevitable they're going to be somewhere with the nature of self hosted platforms like lemmy
This thread is about lemm.ee, the instance your account is on, defederating from a Nazi pedo instance. That means not having them in your corner of the internet. Why are you arguing against this?
I'm not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the "free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable.
It's fairly obvious to 99% of people when it's things like Nazis and pedos but it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Lemmy instances having their own rules and defederating from those they don't like seems like the best solution provided there are enough of them that users can jump ship if they don't like the way they're run
Okay o' wise liberal of the lake. What are these "controversial topics"?
Please enlighten us and get to the fucking point.
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Such as?
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
So you think people should be able to use slurs. Big suprise there
Pedophilia and Nazi shit are not acceptable. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Quit JAQing off and answer my questions motherfucker.
I'm not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the "free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable.
free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable.
Human welfare as decided by the humans in question. If we agree that we would overall benefit from Nazis being cast out, then that is all that is needed to cast them out.
The Nazis can vote in their favor, be outvoted, and then be treated mercilessly by the majority if they cling to their fascism. It's really quite simple.
And if the system is one where the Nazis win such a contest, then debating about parliamentary bullshit is a waste of time because you are talking about a system where Nazis are a majority power. At that point, the system is something to oppose by whatever means necessary, not something to reform and critique like the Nazis give a shit what you think except to purge you.
"free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable
it extremely doesn't. communities have standards -- they get to decide.
It's fairly obvious to 99% of people when it's things like Nazis and pedos but it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
I'd extremely like to know what more controversial topics you have in mind
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
nah, slurs 100℅ deserve a ban. miss me with this shit. Im also shocked, shocked that you defend the use of slurs. I wonder why you'd use a website like that
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
lmao it's definitely impossible to make the case that a group of largely queer people deserve protection - I've definitely never made this case at length and vigorously on this website because it's impossible to do without uhhh checks notes
.hexbears
lmao, I and most other hexbears don't give the smallest shit if liberals defed us because we're rude. we carved out a place for ourselves and made a happy and comfortable home for 3 years without federation - we recruit offline, into orgs, not online. lemmy is a place for us to decompress and commiserate, not a means or an end.
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
Put it to a vote. If they vote against us, then c'est la vie. My only stipulation is that we get a chance to present our case (as our opponents also would).
Great and if they retreat further and further into Nazi/Pedo instances instead of engaging with the criticism and condemnation of their views and actions then that just curates for us a list of people that need to be excised from society at large. Online or otherwise.
This creates a list of people that should be placed in reeducation programs post-revolution. I don't see a problem with it.
Why are you so worried about Nazi and pedo shit getting silenced? I am beginning to suspect you might have an ulterior motive here.
If you concentrate them all into one place they reinforce their own views and don't get told to stfu by others on the internet, the problem is this way they don't get silenced, just hidden
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
Okay so what is your alternative? Throw them into a pit and bury them? Let them continue to spread their virulent bigotry?
I think reeducation programs sounds pretty humane to me.
If you believe in the so-called "free marketplace of ideas" then you need some reeducation yourself honestly. Fucking look around you. Where has that brought you?
Also calling reeducation "dystopian" while the US prison slavery market exists is fucking rich.
You're basically also doing slavery apologia right now.
You literally cannot conceive of anything outside the hegemonic worldview of liberal capitalism that is being contested right now. You are doing the exact same retreat to an echo chamber that you decry, but the echo chamber is in your own head and the walls are these thought terminating cliches you keep regurgitating.
You are doing the exact same retreat to an echo chamber that you decry, but the echo chamber is in your own head and the walls are these thought terminating cliches you keep regurgitating.
explain yourself or I am going to ban you from Hexbear and inform the lemm.ee mods that you need to be banned for Nazi/pedo apologia.
you have 24 hours. I am going to work now.
Go fuck yourself.
If you read my responses to more civil users you'll get any answers you want
I suspect you don't want answers you just want a witch hunt though
OH NO!!! The CIVILITY!
Bruh what the fuck you think you were talking about when you claimed people should be shunned for saying horrible shit.
Cuz that is what is happening to you right now.
I think the solution is force them to integrate with society and not give them the opportunity to have an echo chamber which may well mean in this case defederating as you can't do anything about them
Also yeah fuck the us prison system I never once claimed the US government were not also fucked.
Can't actually find any other questions in your wall of text there to answer the rest is just personally attacking me
fuck you, being forced to deal with people who would kill me given half the chance is not something I will ever do. I will oppose them by any means necessary, regardless of what the broader society thinks of such.
So are you going to actually reply to my question?
What are these controversial topics you are afraid of not being allowed to discuss?
Get to the fucking point.
it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Explain yourself or fuck off.
So what, it's better to have Nazis and pedos out in the open? Do you think you'll give them a West Wing speech and they'll magically realize the error of their ways? Nazis aren't looking for people to challenge their views.
CW: CSA
spoiler
Its honestly even more unfathomable to imagine talking people out of it in the case of what instance is being discussed for defederation here: an instance with a comm for pedophiles who are pro-contact and think children can consent. You can't fucking debate a pro-contact pedophile out of being pro-contact. I'm a strong rehabilitationist so I wouldn't want to execute them and would consider chemical castration a last resort (also, whats the science on that? does that even work?) so I would go with isolation from society where they can't hurt kids and deep, deep fucking therapy, and possibly restorative justice if they have actually victimized anyone. But individuals online are not going to convince a fucking pro-contact pedophile that sex with kids is wrong. And you definitely aren't going to be able to use debate to get them to stop being attracted to kids in the first place.
Like, fuck, if the comm was for anti-contact pedophiles who strictly gather for the purpose of supporting each other in remaining strong in their convictions, then I wouldn't want to nuke the community from existence (as long as thats ALL its for, and they arent like sharing fantasies with each other and other shit). Still wouldn't want to be federated with them though. Don't want to see that shit.
also, whats the science on that? does that even work?
I've looked this up before (admittedly it was kind of cursory) and from what I could tell the conclusion was that it doesn't seem to, that its apparent success cases seem to be from other factors (rehabilitation, gaming the diagnostic system, etc.) rather than the procedure itself having the desired effect. I don't really know what is true, but just wanted to mention it since you asked.
Anyway, I think you're correct in all of your assessments there. I'd even say federating with an anti-contact, anti-CSAM, anti-fantasy (etc.) instance would be worth considering once instances can be blocked, simply because they are trying to help people not be predators, but I can see why other people would be uncomfortable with such a thing. The instance in question, however, is not and cannot be any of those things and should be illegal to run.
that's hard to do without exposing victims of CSA to it. better I think to recommend people go there if they need a place to talk about it.
They don't just get hidden, they get suppressed and repressed. Their views are less widespread and influential. They are more often ignored by the workings of power and economy. Shove the nazis into a hole and seal it up, good riddance.
This is a good point, less people that know about the echo chamber the less they recruit which I guess keeps them isolated but they will always find ways to attract more of their own
I appreciate you being one of few people who doesn't immediately jump to hurling insults
getting banned is silencing them, fool. it prevents them from recruiting more people. they can talk to themselves day in and day out but without fresh meat they can't grow. the lesson of the last decade is that deplatforming 100% works. your free speech bullshit is exactly how nazis cover for themselves. liberals clutching pearls about muh
just provides them a defense.free speech for who, for what purpose, and at what cost? do you ever stop and think about the people harmed by the presence of the people you're JAQing off for?
everyone has a line past which they won't tolerate "free speech" -- if they were advocating for the murder of the people you love 0% chance you'd be pulling this shit. the problem is you feel safe and comfortable in the knowledge that they don't threaten you. you're comfortable with the bigotry, shielded by the bottomless chasm of your ignorance. wake up call: if they seize power, they will hurt you and everyone you love, just as much as the rest of us. you're not fucking safe.
Very well said. These motherfuckers will be lined up right along side us in the death camps.
They have always had their own platforms, using forum software and the like. They will use any free software regular people will use. They always had their own isolated corners of the internet.
So then the question is whether these people would cease to be nazis or pedophiles if only they interacted with "normal" people. Decades of that mindset have gone by and the answer is "no." They want tu be in normie spaces to convince others, they're not going to deradicalize like that. Deradicalization is hard, time consuming for volunteers, and rare, as well as rarely complete. And even if it were effective, it is unethical to demand the people they target be the ones to deradicalize them. Nobody here signed an agreement to be a nazi pedo's unpaid therapist.
Yes racism just corrects itself. That’s why there’s famously no racism happening anywhere
Racism has dramatically reduced in recent years, used to be people would make racist comments in casual conversation and nobody would care
The vast, vast majority of racism is not done through casual conversation. I hope you understand that.
True. That definitely can't stop it influencing people's decisions at least in the short term
I'd still like to think in the long term younger generations are less racist and would replace older ones stuck in their ways that currently hold all the power
People still do that, it just depends on the company. Between this and some other comments, I think you are extrapolating far too much from your own anecdotal experiences.
Nah dude I just said that people should be prevented from spreading Nazi or Pedo shit and you come in here with your contrarian bullshit.
Free speech does not, and frankly should not exist.
You said something horrible in your implicit defense of Nazi and Pedo shit being allowed to be spread. Now you are getting shunned for it. How's that working out for you?
ah yes, the free market will fix it. the "marketplace of ideas."
gtfo
and if you kept doing it, would you be asked to leave? would your "free speech" be "violated" by exclusion from decent society? I'm struggling to see the contours of your argument, where exactly you draw the line between "censorship" and "social pressure" and how you imagine that ought to translate to online spaces?
If this was true, racism would be eradicated. It must further be stated that, though many racists are very ignorant, ascribing racism fundamentally to "stupidity" is just as worthless as ascribing it to "evil". It is a moralizing account that cannot be usefully applied as systemic critique because it is all supposedly a matter of personal virtue.
People are racist as a strategy to prosper, first and foremost. It is not until you understand racism as a social strategy that you can fight it.
I can't say I do understand it as a social strategy, I would hazard a guess it's something like "if we make this group enemy #1, we can get lots of people rallied behind us and they won't pay attention to the horrible things we do"?
I think it's a bit ancillary but yes, one of the benefits for the racist is that by defining others as being part of the outgroup, they place themselves in the ingroup and thereby have people they can rely on with a common cause they both oppose (the flourishing of the minority group).
But probably the most concrete reason is economic (I was using "social" in its broadest sense), specifically that the brutal marginalization of minorities pushes them into the position of an underclass, whose labor value is the most exploited, meaning where ever the poor racist ends up in life, it is less likely to be there at that bottom rung, while the richer racists get cheap labor.
if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
What Saturday morning cartoon do you live in bro?
Now let's see how they react to saying something horrible and getting shunned for it lol.
Oh wait now they're gonna complain about Hexbear bullies. Calling it now.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't?
I don't care who gets to decide as long as Nazism and pedophilia isn't tolerated
It's fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned
lmfao no you don't I hear people say horrible shit all the time and nobody speaks up because muh civility, or because the people they are saying it to are at their job and calling it out would be "political."
You have a child's understanding of the world.
I said Nazi shit and pedo shit should be silenced and you rush in here like "Ummm ACKSHUALLY"
Fuck off.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't
Put it to a vote, simple as. This "who watches the watcher?" bit neoliberals do is nothing but concern-trolling because they have been taught the purpose of the government is to protect property rights, wage war, and nothing more.
In all avenues of life and interaction, we should pursue the use of power by collective assent to improve our conditions, including by stamping out fascists and abusers with a mind not to "justice" but to protecting the people they would victimize.
Put it to a vote, simple as
Nah voting is overrated I will be the supreme chancellor and gatekeeper of what is allowed to be said online.
This is a joke of course but that would be better than whatever this weirdo is advocating.
The entire model of federation is shunning. We are shunning them by defederating. We don't have to interact with them. You don't have to interact with them. You don't have to interact with us, and in fact you could decide to go join the pedos and nazis and nazi pedos on their instances. You won't, but on a technical level there is no central content moderator for all of the fediverse, only instances practicing free association and maybe cooperating to make that process easier.
But since you lack the authority to make us interact with those groups, you're left having to choose who you'll keep company with, and that'll have consequences as people don't like nazi or pedo apologists.
Which is why Lemmy is a good system but I think that system is rather fragile because instances like lemmy.world could get the majority of the users, be absolute saints for a while so everyone gets comfortable and then influence the rest of the instances with threats of defederating
I guess considering there's no monetary gain from having more users that doesn't really work as well but still
It's me, I decide, and I decided nazism was bad a long time ago. You really need to get with the program dude.
This creates a question. Not this specific content, but on the political side of the content. It may be illegal in US, but legal in Russia and vice versa.
How does fediverse address this?
it varies by jurisdiction, but a server hosted in the US would be obligated to avoid serving illegal content whether it was sent from another server, uploaded by the server owner, or posted by a user of the site, which I believe creates an obligation to defed from CP instances.
An instance that hosts
CW sv mention
CP(child pornography).
Not relying on legalistic justifications, for one. Legality is a constraint of whoever the host would be arrested by. It's not a substitute for having your own standards. You shouldn't need a legal justification to ban pedos or nazis, no matter where you live. We can't stop them from making their own online spaces, but we are not obligated to share our spaces with them.
love and respect to my comrade embracing TomboyShulk thought
