see linked post. I believe this would count as one of the examples given in the federation policy https://lemm.ee/post/401063 :
An instance which is knowingly spreading CSAM into the federated network
I mean this is real free speech. We might find what they say and talk about horrible. But that’s what real free speech gets you
This is why I do not believe in free speech absolutism.
Nazi shit, pedo shit, etc. should not be tolerated and there is absolutely nothing wrong with silencing these sick fucks.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't? It's fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned but online you can always find people who agree with you and those people will always make their own echo chambers and isolate themselves
Only way on such a large scale is moderation but that's a never ending battle and requires a small group of people or single person deciding what's acceptable
if you say something horrible you get shunned
People are rational actors and naturally know that bad ideas are bad.If that's how it worked we wouldn't have fascists everywhere right now.
True there are a lot of stupid people out there but if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
That's definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can't shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren't you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned online for being a Nazi or pedo?
I am infact quite happy to have as few Nazis and pedos in my corner of the internet as possible, just think it's inevitable they're going to be somewhere with the nature of self hosted platforms like lemmy
This thread is about lemm.ee, the instance your account is on, defederating from a Nazi pedo instance. That means not having them in your corner of the internet. Why are you arguing against this?
I'm not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the "free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable.
It's fairly obvious to 99% of people when it's things like Nazis and pedos but it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Lemmy instances having their own rules and defederating from those they don't like seems like the best solution provided there are enough of them that users can jump ship if they don't like the way they're run
Great and if they retreat further and further into Nazi/Pedo instances instead of engaging with the criticism and condemnation of their views and actions then that just curates for us a list of people that need to be excised from society at large. Online or otherwise.
This creates a list of people that should be placed in reeducation programs post-revolution. I don't see a problem with it.
Why are you so worried about Nazi and pedo shit getting silenced? I am beginning to suspect you might have an ulterior motive here.
If you concentrate them all into one place they reinforce their own views and don't get told to stfu by others on the internet, the problem is this way they don't get silenced, just hidden
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
They have always had their own platforms, using forum software and the like. They will use any free software regular people will use. They always had their own isolated corners of the internet.
So then the question is whether these people would cease to be nazis or pedophiles if only they interacted with "normal" people. Decades of that mindset have gone by and the answer is "no." They want tu be in normie spaces to convince others, they're not going to deradicalize like that. Deradicalization is hard, time consuming for volunteers, and rare, as well as rarely complete. And even if it were effective, it is unethical to demand the people they target be the ones to deradicalize them. Nobody here signed an agreement to be a nazi pedo's unpaid therapist.
Yes racism just corrects itself. That’s why there’s famously no racism happening anywhere
Racism has dramatically reduced in recent years, used to be people would make racist comments in casual conversation and nobody would care
The vast, vast majority of racism is not done through casual conversation. I hope you understand that.
True. That definitely can't stop it influencing people's decisions at least in the short term
I'd still like to think in the long term younger generations are less racist and would replace older ones stuck in their ways that currently hold all the power
People still do that, it just depends on the company. Between this and some other comments, I think you are extrapolating far too much from your own anecdotal experiences.
and if you kept doing it, would you be asked to leave? would your "free speech" be "violated" by exclusion from decent society? I'm struggling to see the contours of your argument, where exactly you draw the line between "censorship" and "social pressure" and how you imagine that ought to translate to online spaces?
If this was true, racism would be eradicated. It must further be stated that, though many racists are very ignorant, ascribing racism fundamentally to "stupidity" is just as worthless as ascribing it to "evil". It is a moralizing account that cannot be usefully applied as systemic critique because it is all supposedly a matter of personal virtue.
People are racist as a strategy to prosper, first and foremost. It is not until you understand racism as a social strategy that you can fight it.
I can't say I do understand it as a social strategy, I would hazard a guess it's something like "if we make this group enemy #1, we can get lots of people rallied behind us and they won't pay attention to the horrible things we do"?
I think it's a bit ancillary but yes, one of the benefits for the racist is that by defining others as being part of the outgroup, they place themselves in the ingroup and thereby have people they can rely on with a common cause they both oppose (the flourishing of the minority group).
But probably the most concrete reason is economic (I was using "social" in its broadest sense), specifically that the brutal marginalization of minorities pushes them into the position of an underclass, whose labor value is the most exploited, meaning where ever the poor racist ends up in life, it is less likely to be there at that bottom rung, while the richer racists get cheap labor.
Nah dude I just said that people should be prevented from spreading Nazi or Pedo shit and you come in here with your contrarian bullshit.
Free speech does not, and frankly should not exist.
You said something horrible in your implicit defense of Nazi and Pedo shit being allowed to be spread. Now you are getting shunned for it. How's that working out for you?
ah yes, the free market will fix it. the "marketplace of ideas."
gtfo
if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
What Saturday morning cartoon do you live in bro?
Now let's see how they react to saying something horrible and getting shunned for it lol.
Oh wait now they're gonna complain about Hexbear bullies. Calling it now.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't?
I don't care who gets to decide as long as Nazism and pedophilia isn't tolerated
It's fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned
lmfao no you don't I hear people say horrible shit all the time and nobody speaks up because muh civility, or because the people they are saying it to are at their job and calling it out would be "political."
You have a child's understanding of the world.
I said Nazi shit and pedo shit should be silenced and you rush in here like "Ummm ACKSHUALLY"
Fuck off.
The problem is who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't
Put it to a vote, simple as. This "who watches the watcher?" bit neoliberals do is nothing but concern-trolling because they have been taught the purpose of the government is to protect property rights, wage war, and nothing more.
In all avenues of life and interaction, we should pursue the use of power by collective assent to improve our conditions, including by stamping out fascists and abusers with a mind not to "justice" but to protecting the people they would victimize.
Put it to a vote, simple as
Nah voting is overrated I will be the supreme chancellor and gatekeeper of what is allowed to be said online.
This is a joke of course but that would be better than whatever this weirdo is advocating.
Because trying to protect something from bad people is difficult, subjectively determined, and an ongoing process, absolutely nothing should be done at all!
Which is why Lemmy is a good system but I think that system is rather fragile because instances like lemmy.world could get the majority of the users, be absolute saints for a while so everyone gets comfortable and then influence the rest of the instances with threats of defederating
I guess considering there's no monetary gain from having more users that doesn't really work as well but still
The entire model of federation is shunning. We are shunning them by defederating. We don't have to interact with them. You don't have to interact with them. You don't have to interact with us, and in fact you could decide to go join the pedos and nazis and nazi pedos on their instances. You won't, but on a technical level there is no central content moderator for all of the fediverse, only instances practicing free association and maybe cooperating to make that process easier.
But since you lack the authority to make us interact with those groups, you're left having to choose who you'll keep company with, and that'll have consequences as people don't like nazi or pedo apologists.
It's me, I decide, and I decided nazism was bad a long time ago. You really need to get with the program dude.
This creates a question. Not this specific content, but on the political side of the content. It may be illegal in US, but legal in Russia and vice versa.
How does fediverse address this?
it varies by jurisdiction, but a server hosted in the US would be obligated to avoid serving illegal content whether it was sent from another server, uploaded by the server owner, or posted by a user of the site, which I believe creates an obligation to defed from CP instances.
An instance that hosts
CW sv mention
CP(child pornography).
Not relying on legalistic justifications, for one. Legality is a constraint of whoever the host would be arrested by. It's not a substitute for having your own standards. You shouldn't need a legal justification to ban pedos or nazis, no matter where you live. We can't stop them from making their own online spaces, but we are not obligated to share our spaces with them.
