It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
Isn't peaceful coexistence the sort of premise of the one secular state solution that's the standard leftist line though?
Peaceful coexistence within a free Palestinian state, not "peaceful coexistence" of so-called two states or "peaceful coexistence" within an Israeli apartheid state. The possibility of peaceful coexistence only exists if Israel ceases to exist and the colonization stops, and I think it would be pretty generous to Zizek to assume that's what he meant here.
Oh yeah an absolute mountain of stuff would have to chain for that to be workable agreed, but I was just wondering if the commenter I was responding to envisioned another endgame
Removed by mod
Jewish militias have been stealing land and killing people since at least the '30s there, so that standard would bar the single secular state solution from apparently the get go.
I'm not sure you meant it this way, but this is literally ethnic cleansing. And sure while we like to joke about all these people having second homes in Brooklyn, a lot of them were displaced from the Arab world in 1948, and others have been there even longer, so I don't know where you'd want them to go.
I'm talking about removing Israeli's preferential treatment toward Judaism, not some hypothetical Palestinian theocracy.
Well it really depends on how many isntrealis were already living in Palestine when isntreal was established though. Isn't it true that the vast majority of them settled there in the past ~40 years?
As for those who were displaced, they can temporarily be relocated somewhere else, like Europe, while Palestine is rebuilt, then, they can immigrate back as Palestinians.
Tbf yes you are right, it is hyperbolic for me to say that they all should leave. However, I don't understand why you would interpret the assertion that; settlers, who arrived from afar, stole the homes from a group of people, murdered large numbers of them, and threw the survivors into a concentration camp, need to leave and give the homes back, is ethnic cleansing.
Because Im not saying that it's "muh joos" that need to leave because they are "le jooish", its moreso the issue that "people" who believe in the settler colonial project of Isntreal and gladly enforce it with blood and fire deserving to be kicked out of the land they stole by force, by the people who they stole it from, so that they do no more harm and return the stolen homes. Like how the french were kicked out of Haiti.
Isntreal doesn't deserve to exist in its current form, it's a fascist ethnostate that needs to be dissolved.
Yes, but there has always be a minority in the region, 5% of the population or less, but this gets complicated as generations go on. If the dad's family has been there for a millenia, but mom came over from Germany, what does that make you? How far back does that have to go?
I don't think that is a morally abhorrent suggestion, but that does verge on ethnic cleansing. Obviously they aren't entitled to land taken from Palestinians, but uprooting them again should be avoided if at all possible.
I think I large bit of the problem comes from this fluid notion of settler. Someone who moved to Israel and legitimately bought land in 1880 under the Ottoman empire (a multiethnic state) weren't necessarily doing anything too objectionable, but as successive waves came in and started actively and violently displacing Palestinians, their claim to the land becomes much less defensible, and further still, the ones actively engaged in displacement right now in the West Bank despite being told that it's illegal; which is the traditional meaning of 'settler' in the Palestine/Israel context are even more abhorrent.
I think everyone agrees that there's no concern of ethnic cleansing in the final case, but as settler is construed more and more broadly to refer to essentially Jewish family that wasn't there in 1800 the concern for ethnic cleansing rises.
And just a minor quibble, the indigenous of Haiti didn't kick the french out of Haiti; the Taino people were essentially whipped out in that colony and played no role in the uprising and expulsion.
If the person joined the IDF and supports the state of instreal, they are a settler and need to leave. If they don't then they are Palestinian.
There are no roots on stolen land. Isntreali settlers murder people so they can steal their homes. The land they live on is not theirs. Very simple.
Then that person is a Palestinian. "Israel" is a modern invention. Their house was probably bulldozed by the IDF.
I don't think anyone is ontologically conflating "isntreali settler" with "Jew" except the isntreali and American propaganda departments so they can make the claim that "muh anti Israel is anti semitism." Anyone of any race or religion can be a settler if they murder people in other lands to ethnically cleanse them and steal their homes.
I think it's a very, very simple matter of a person having no right to live in a house they stole after killing the family who lived there.
Israel has conscription, which I presume you know, so we're essentially back to they all have to leave, including the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population that have been there for a millennia, which, is fact, the ethnic cleansing you were walking back a second ago.
That's not how they identify, and in reality their grand-children probably serve in the IDF.
I mean, your definition of settler as "IDF service member", taken in conjuction with Israeli law
Would seem to map, in large part, to the same extension even if the intensions are in fact different.
Like I don't think you're actually anti-semitic or want the entire Jewish population kicked out, you're just not treating this as the difficult problem it is and spitballing solutions that just happen to essentially result in all the jews being kicked out.
I think thats a very bad faith reading of what I wrote because you're focusing on some technicality about IDF conscription instead of the fact of the matter that if you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you have no claim to it and need to leave.
I don't care whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc. the fact remains is that those living in Isntreal, land recently stolen, have committed a heinous crime against humanity and need to give it back. How they go about doing so and where they go is not my problem, its up to isntreal and the western governments who prop it up to decide because they are the aggressors who have committed a genocide and stolen land, in this situation. Saying that "oh but they have to stay and continue to benefit from the homes they have stolen without giving anything back because muh TINA" is the same flavor of cope as "oh but capitalism needs to kill over 10 million people each year and destroy humanity because muh TINA".
What part about that is so difficult to understand?
Also
is probably a trivial portion of the population, because if we take a look at population statistics: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-israel-1948-present
We can observe that 1) This is an artificially inflated population driven by settler colonialism, most of these people haven't lived there for 4 generations (~80 years) let alone a millennia & 2) Records literally start from 1948, Israel Isntreal.
Moreover, are you literally saying that the land presently colored in green in the image below is owned by the "indigenous peoples" who lived there for "millennia"?
Look if you're going to suggest a policy for removal, I don't know how I'm supposed to evaluate that if not literally.
Some of them have, some of them haven't. Some Israelis have been living there for millennial, even more from 1880 on during the first wave of legal, nonviolent immigration, and they and there descendants have pretty much totally fair claim to that land. They don't have claim to Israel as a religious ethnostate political entity like it currently exists, but if you insist that all Israeli must leave because Israel as a political entity has committed crimes against humanity (which it has), you're doing ethnic cleansing of individuals, some of which had nothing to do with those crimes and are in fact indigenous to the area.
The difficult part to understand is that you shift seamlessly from insisting all the Israelis have to leave (like I quoted above), to insisting you only mean some of them, the non-indigenous ones have to leave, without having any workable way of demarcating it. Your first criteria (IDF service) literally corresponds to essentially all Jews by law, even indigenous ones.
Records and estimates of the Jewish population of the region date back to before 1948 I was looking at them earlier.
No. I'm claiming that a small subset of that land, and probably even small amounts of yellow land, were privately owned by Jewish families whose descendants are currently in Israel and identify as Israeli. If your end goal for Palestine doesn't include the option of peaceful coexistence for those people as a protected minority, then you're calling for an ethnic cleansing. Which I don't think you are, but you keep stumbling awfully close to it accidentally by pretending this problem, is "like, actually, super simple when you think about it."
I don't know how you look at: "if you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you have no claim to it and need to leave" as: "omg this is advocating a policy of ethnic removal". They are the ones who did the removal.
My son, Isntreal came to being in 1948. There is no "living there for millennia" because there wasn't a "there" to begin with, it always was and will continue to be Palestine first and foremost. "Israeli" is also a bullshit nationality for the same reason.
Fair claim to their ancestral homes as reformed honorary Palestinians in small villages here and there? Yes. The entirety of Palestine? No.
Yeah if you strongly identify as an Isntreali, even after having a proper historical education, you need to be leave because Isntreal is a fascist settler colonial state and you're probably living on the rubble of someone's destroyed home. If you identify as Palestinian (which a minority of people who live in Isntreal do btw) then you still need to give back the stolen land. Not individually ofc this has to be done on a sociological scale but again, its not my problem to determine the specifics how this will happen. Because the bottom line is that the genocide and theft that occurred on that land needs to be addressed and atoned for somehow. Do you understand?
Please refer to the population statistics again:
Most isntrealis are not indigenous to the region, they are settler colonial imports who live on stolen land to further the west's colonial ambitions in the region. It isn't just "some", its "most".
If you live on green land where the land was once yellow , on the rubble of someone's home, you need to give back what was stolen and leave. Very straightforwards! If you have stolen someone's home in a fascist project of ethnic cleansing, you need to give it back!
How can you look at this map and seriously claim that "oh ackshually its ethnic cleansing if you want the people living on recently occupied land to give it back because somehow the map has magically been green for 1000000 gorillion years."
There is no "peaceful coexistence" if you're a fascist living on top of someone's destroyed home saying that its akshually yours because "muh 1000 billion year old ancestry". For the fraction of a fraction of "isntrealis" you describe who are living in "isntreal" in their ancestral homes which are not built on the remains of bulldozed homes, yes, they don't need to leave. But the vast majority should really, really give back what they stole and fuck off elsewhere! They are the ones who have been performing a genocidal campaign of ethnic cleansing for the past 80 years. Please do NOT conflate saying they should stop, give back what they stole, and leave with "removal".
From what I gather you took the hyperbole of "all Isntrealis must go" too literally because the "all" would include the tiny minority of "Israelis" who are actually living in their ancestral homes in occupied Palestine and happen to identify as "Israeli". Those bastards need harsh re-education for daring to identify with a fascist ethnostate but ofc they can stay in Palestine because its their home too. However, the vast majority are settler colonial imports from the past ~80 or so years who live on stolen land, therefore, they need to give back what they stole and leave, maybe for that one Russian province that is majority Jewish.
From the statistics I cited, about 8% of households in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s. We're not talking about infinitesimals here. So yeah, when you say "all Israelis have to go", it sounds like you mean them too. I'm glad you don't, but you don't have to act so put out about being asked to clarify that you don't actually mean the ethnic cleansing that you may have accidentally, literally called for.
Ok ik this is 3 days later but this is important to point out that this is a mistaken conflation between Isntreal as a state and the religion of Judaism. Because if 8% of households were Jewish in Palestine in the 1800 that still makes them Palestinian, not isntreali by any means. If they identify as "Israeli" then they need to be reducated, or kicked out, like how Nazis are kicked out of Germany. In fact, NATOpedia says that some potential IDF soldiers actually refuse service because they don't want to evict these Jewish households. Israel itself is doing an antisemitic project of settler colonialism. "All Israelis out" means all settlers and Zionists, Judaism does not factor into this statement. It only sounds like it when processed with the western liberal mainstream media framework that falsely equates "Israeli" with "Jewish".
"Israeli" itself isn't an ethnicity, just like how "Nazi" isn't. It's fascist blood and soil rhetoric to claim isntreali is an actual proper ethnicity and not an ingroup marker for a genocidal project of ethnic cleansing.
I'm not conflating them, I know they're distinct. The fact remains that the vast majority of the Jewish population of the Levant is Israeli, has Israeli citizenship, and identifies as Israeli. That's the reality on the ground, and you pretending to exclude certain components of the Israeli population from your claim on the basis of "actually there is no such thing as an Israeli" means off you're using a silly linguistic prescriptivism shared by essentially no one.
Look I know you don't want to commit ethnic cleansing, but this argument for why you werent accidentally calling for that in the first place relies on everyone using your ad hoc definition of Israeli in stark contrast to ifs general usage. That's why mods removed your post. Because the common language understanding of it was a call for ethnic cleansing even though you don't mean that.
so youre saying:
A: >Most Israelis are Jewish.
B: >Its ethnic cleansing to expel Jewish people from a land.
Therefore:
C: >If you say you want all Israelis to leave, this means you want Jews to leave, which means you are doing Jewish expulsion ergo ethnic cleansing.
This is a silly argument, because its literally like saying.
Therefore:
To transpose point B to C would imply that people calling for the removal of Isntealis on here do so because Isntrealis are majority Jewish. This is false, because the truth is that we want them to go because they are settlers, first and foremost, who have stolen land in a fascist project of ethnic cleansing and conquest. Them being there is actively harmful to the local population, so they must go.
Being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege to harm others and commit crimes against humanity without repercussions.
By claiming that isntrealis have a right to stay in the lands they conquered because they are jewish and telling them to leave is "muh ethnic cleansing", you're weaponizing the trauma and discrimination that the Jewish people faced for centuries to protect the carrying out of a genocide.
If you go to another country far away, steal someone's home and torture the survivors, you need to at the very least give the home back and leave.
It is not "antisemetism" to say that people have the right to defend their homeland from a violent fascist occupying force that only seeks to slowly kill them in an inhumane open air concentration camp.
It is not advocacy for ethnic cleansing to say that genocidal settlers who stole land must fuck off and give it back.
You don't seem to understand how fucking evil isntreal is as a settler colonial project. Its a fascist cancer on the earth, like hitler's germany, biden's america, victoria's UK or pinochet's chile. In fact many Jewish people in the west also call for the removal of isntreal, and the leaving of everyone who supports it, does that make them advocates for ethnic cleansing against Jews?
I don't care whether or not the mods removed my comment either. It doesn't prove anything, they are human and thus have imperfect judgement sometimes, I do not question their authority on this site and appreciate their efforts, but neither do I think of them as the final arbiters of right and wrong.
The fact still remains that saying "all Israelis must go" is not a call to ethnic cleansing, its a call for the dissolving of a fascist settler colonial project.
Nope, you're commiting something analogous to the converse error in trying to understand my position here. My argument would hold even if 2% of Israelis were jewsih.
No it didn't because your original objection was:
To my comment that "they all should leave their bloody ethnostate built on stolen land".
And we proved that this doesn't make sense because:
The overwhelming majority of isntrealis are settler colonial imports "displaced" by the west as an invading force to live on land that they stole illegally in a campaign of systematic eradication against the indigenous population. If you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you need to fucking leave and return what you stole to the survivors, no matter where you came from originally. Things are, in fact, this black and white here. Do you deny that isntrealis live on stolen land while they keep the original occupants, who they removed, in an open air concentration camp?
Being Jewish doesn't somehow make it ok to perform human rights violations on a mass scale and squat in stolen land in a country you invaded, using the history of Judaism as a persecuted group to justify the wests genocidal occupation of stolen land.
Identifying as "Israeli" is just as fucked as identifying with any other fascist colonial project. Anyone who unironically does should be treated accordingly.
Telling genocidal settlers to fuck off is not "muh ethnic cleansing advocacy" in any context.
It's basically ignoring the main point that the land is stolen in the most visceral, literal sense, physically stolen, and thus must be returned by kicking out the invaders. It isn't that the original inhabitants suddenly started identifying as isntreali in large numbers in a coup situation, its an invasion from the outside by a settler colonial power structure. Therefore, the invaders must be returned to the outside.
Here are two facts.
All Jewish Residents of the area are Israeli citizens and identify as Israeli, indigenous (a minority) and settler alike. (You committed the converse error in thinking I was talking about most Israelis being jewish; this is logically non-equivalent).
Your argument is that all Israelis must go.
Therefore, you think all Jewish residents of the area must go?
I know you don't think but that is what you said originally and what you continue to say, and your ad hoc redefinition of the indigenous Jewish population as Palestinian in contradiction of their identity and citizenship in order to avoid owning up to the plain-language interpretation of your statement is textbook special pleading. If you would just specify that the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population and expelled jews could stay, or just all settlers must go, we could dodge this issue entirely. As it was, you original statement literally caused upset among jewish users here because they took you to mean "get rid of all the jews", because all the jews there are Israeli.
This is wrong because there are Jewish people who live on the West Bank and in Gaza. Some settlers defect from the IDF because they don't want to evict them from their homes.
Yeah all enthusiastic citizens of the fascist non state should be kicked out.
Notice how I said "Israelis" and not "Jews"?
"B-B-BUT they all happen to be Jewish!?!??"
Being Jewish doesn't mean you can commit crimes against humanity and steal land without having to give it back and leave. If you're isntreali you are a fascist settler before anything else. And should be treated like one.
And this is literally like saying:
Yeah because I don't care what religion you are. If youre a fascist psycho who is happily committing a genocide in my village, you need to die.
Similarly, if you are isntreali, living in a fascist ethnostate built on stolen land, then you need to leave. I don't care what religion you are, it won't change the fact that the land you live on isn't yours, and you need to give it back.
I shouldn't need to specify "all isntrealis but not X% of the population because they are living in their own ancestral homes" because its common understanding around the world that the word "Israeli" means "settler" and "invader", except to gormless westerners who watch mainstream mass media. It's ceding ground to liberal sensibilities, id fucking do it for the media but not for some idiot libs on our Kurdish bearposting site.
Literally like the right wing types who say "oh not all men bro not all men youre wrong bro".
In fact I'm coming to the conclusion that even the 1% "indigenous" population who identifies as "isntreali" should be kicked out for supporting a genocide of their former countrymen.
Is there a private group chat which I'm not invited to or...? Because it's just you who is seething, and white I'm guessing?
There was another thread where a Jewish user specifically confirmed your post was one of the ones that gave them ethnic cleansing concerns. Which is why it was removed. I didn't report it. Seriously, all you have to say is "cheers, I'll be more careful in the future to try not to upset people about ethnic cleansing", but you just absolutely can't admit to have caused the slightest amount of discomfort for some freaking reason.
And yet
Talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Yeah if men as a class had a history of pogroms and ethnic cleansing and industrial mass murder this analogy would be cogent.
I know there are jewish people in the West Bank; tons of them live in illegal settlements. There don't seem to be any indications of Jewish people living in gaza, beyond perhaps a literal handful, under 100 and certainly under 1000. Israeli forces apparently evicted all of them in 2005 as part of peace talks.
Link to the thread if you're going to make accusations like this. It's still their problem for identifying in any way with the residents of a fascist state.
No I'm not going to walk back my statement because of genocide apologia concern trolling thanks. I gladly admit when I said something fucked on this site, this situation is not one of those times. I'm not apologizing for the shitty liberal understandings of other people because some cracker cries liberal crocodile tears about "muh ethnic cleansing".
IDGAF man the hundreds of thousands of people worldwide currently protesting beg to differ. Palestinians and the vast majority of people on this site don't recognize isntreal as a state and that's enough for me. Nothing will change the fact that it's a settler colonial fascist project of ethnic cleansing. Are you seriously going to deny that because CNN told you otherwise?
I'm not the one concern trolling for isntreal. You haven't responded to the points I laid out in any capacity.
Notice how you're conflating "Israeli" with "Jewish" again. What you describe is literally the history of Isntreal, commiting pogroms, ethnic cleansing, and industrial mass murder against Palestinians. Isntreal has never had a history of human rights abuses committed against it.
"B-B-BUT they're mostly Jewish!!!!"
Again, being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege of killing innocent people in a campaign of genocide while weaponizing a history of persecution to deflect criticism.
And thus it is possible to say "all Isntrealis must fuck off" because, the truth is, isntreal is a fascist settler colonial genocide machine before anything else.
It's like that comedian said on TV, you guys think you're superman but in reality you're homelander.
Isntreal itself is one giant illegal settlement thank you very much. I was referring to indigenous arab Jews.
It's pretty obvious that you're a cracker given how much you fail to acknowledge the evil of a genocide when committed against brown people and instead read statements decrying the genocider in the worst faith possible.
Why would I bother doing that? You've already decided you haven't done anything wrong; evidence that other people and the mods disagree isn't going to change your mind. The thread in question was literally on the front page for 2 days. Are you gonna admit you caused disquiet among leftist, anti-zionist jews and try to avoid that in the future if I share that with you, or are you just going to double down and insist they were wrong to feel alarmed and start yelling at them? Cause I'm not going to be a party to that.
Great, but none of that has happened here.
No one is denying that. Our conversation started because you carelessly called for ethnic cleansing in response to their ethnic cleansing.
Yeah, how many of them live in Gaza?
Because your points don't have anything to do with the original conversation. They don't indicate the slightest bit of engagement with what I'm saying. You literally treat "most Israelis are Jewish" and "most of the Jews of the region are Israeli", which are incredibly different in their connotation and implication, but you treat them as interchangeable. How am I supposed to engage with that?
This is evidence that you aren't even reading what I've been typing in the typical cracker fashion because I've already addressed this.
Oh you mean the one where 90% of the comments flamed OP for being a liberal over a bunch of nothing burgers? Yeah now I know which one you're talking about.
Bruh you don't get to talk to me in that condescending way you pale-skinned maggot bastard. Yes they are wrong to feel alarmed for identifying with a fascist state, if they were actually "anti-zionist" then they would understand that isntreal is fascist first and foremost before anything.
lol. lmao even
I've already addressed how it isn't ethnic cleansing to say that the occupants of a fascist settler colonial genocide machine and their supporters need to fuck off from the lands they stole but ok.
Thats something you decided in your own mind because I've explained multiple times why they do, yet you have never demonstrated otherwise. Its so curious to me why you won't explain why you think being jewish somehow makes a settler population immune to the consequences of stealing land and committing crimes against humanity such that you think that calling for their leaving is "ethnic cleansing".
You can put the analytical philosoyphy set theory away because I've already explained, multiple times:
"Most of the Jews in the region are Isntreali" because they are settler colonial imports to further the interests of the fascist non-state of isntreal that have no claim to the land, I repeat, they live on stolen land, therefore, it is not ethnic cleansing to say that all these isntreali bastards should return the stolen land and leave.
"b-b-but a small percentage of the israelis are m'indigenous!!"
This is just being pedantic in bad faith in the vein of "not all men bro" as I explained earlier and you failed to respond to. I'm of the opinion now that even they should fuck off too for proudly identifying with the machine that is performing a genocide of their countrymen. You don't seem to understand the sheer weight of what a genocide means. It isn't something you can just apologize for and then continue with business as usual.
If someone is an isntreali, they are a fascist and the enemy. You don't seem to understand this, because again, you are a white concern troll.
Also if you respond with some soy non argument then I will turn this into a mass struggle session, please be warned.
"Actually, in retrospect, I am calling for ethnic cleansing of all the jews, even the indigenous ones"
We're not even back to square one, we've gone backwards.
How is it ethnic cleansing to kick out the foreign perpetrators of genocide and land theft from your lands along with their local accomplices? Please answer this question.
"b-but its because they're jewish" No excuses for genocide and land theft.
If you can't answer this question in a straightforward way then I am really going to find that post and calling the site Stasi on your ass. You're literally grasping at straws because you can't fucking respond in a coherent manner to the fact that isntreal is fundamentally a fascist settler colonial ethnostate and a cancer on this earth before anything, they are the enemy.
Because you construe local accomplices to include anyone identifying as an Israeli, which ae we've agreed, includes almost all the Jews in the region.
You're not kicking them out because they're Jewish, your just kicking out essentially all the Jews based on some other criteria.
That's ethnic cleansing.
Yeah choosing to identify with and support a fascist settler colonial project currently committing genocide is just meaningless, "some other criteria".
Really showing how little you care about how evil isntreal is.
Being a fascist isnt good, supporting genocide is not good. Just because you're Jewish doesn't somehow make it ok.
"almost all Jews in the region" are settler colonial imports living on land that is not theirs, why do you want to ignore this fact?
No one is ignoring this fact. I've even cited demographic numbers in this very conversation with you.
Look if you want to say that essentially all the Jews of Israel need to be expelled, including indigenous ones, go for it, but don't act all surprised when you get accused of advocating for ethnic cleansing, cause ya are when you say things with that effect, even if you think it's justified. If Vietnam had eradicated or expelled the Hmong like many of them feared (enough to flee) for allying with the US, that still would have been ethnic cleansing. Happily, the communists saw no reason to engage in that.
Israel can stops it's genocide, enact a right of return, and transition to a single state Palestine and Israeli under a secular framework with protections for minorities without expelling essentially all it's Jews, and to argue otherwise is to buy into Zionist talking points.
You can't even respond to:
lol. lmao again. Truly showing how much you have failed to internalize what "genocide" means when its against brown people. Gormless cracker with shit for brains.
I said "all israelis" not "all the jews of israel" you stupid fuck. Identifying with a fascist settler colonial project should indeed have repercussions, jewish or not. You haven't seemed to grasp how fucking evil isntreal is, its just as bad as nazi germany and identifying with it in this day and age should be addressed in the same manner.
There is no "and Israeli" and "secular framework", Palestine is a Sunni Muslim country and whether they secularize or not is up to them. A genocidal settler colonial project has no right to continue existing in any form whatsoever. You're basically doing "muh TINA" soft advocacy for the continued existence of a settler colonial project.
"akshually if you think that the settler soyciety shouldn't set the terms and be in control of its own dissolution without its population being forced to give back their homes you're akshually supporting Zionism"
You're a liberal.
False analogy btw. The genocide that isntreal and the west is doing is more comparable to what the nazis did to eastern europe. And yes, nazi collaborators were fucking shot when the invading force was expelled.
The jews of Israel are a subset of all Israelis how are you still struggling with this basic concept. And you darned sure don't intend to remove the Israeli bedouin population.
You also ran your mouth about Gazan Jews and ignored my follow ups about them when it became clear such a thing doesn't exist in any appreciable numbers, displaying how much you actually know about the subject.
If the Don cossocks has been expelled or liquidated in their entirety due to some of them collaborating with the Nazis, that too would be ethnic cleansing, even though Nazis were a fundamentally fascist and genocidal project. The removal of native ethnic Germans from eastern and central Europe following WW2? Ethnic cleansing.
This isn't hard stuff. You don't get to remove entire groups of people for state crimes against humanity without carefully and specifically evaluating complicity in those crimes. Otherwise you're ethnic cleansing.
Israelis are settler colonial demons that need to be kicked out, and being jewish doesnt mean you can occupy stolen land and aid in ethnic cleansing without consequence, how are you still struggling with these basic concepts?
Ok so its "non appreciable numbers" when the oppressed population has Jews lmao you bloodthirsty racist fuck.
Here's the thing, all Isntreali citizens are fascist collaborators in genocide like how all Nazis were fascists for identifying with a genocidal state. Isntreal is a fundamentally fascist state, isntreali is not an ethnicity just like how nazi isnt. Saying otherwise is a lie constructed by the liberal mainstream media.
The Don Cumsocks on the other hand are an ethnic group that existed from before the Nazis, so expelling them all would be, in fact, ethnic cleansing, because "Don Cossack" is an ethnicity and does not imply that all of them are fascists.
AS SUCH: Nobody is saying that all Jews should be kicked out of the region because some of them are isntreali, the line is that all self-identifying israelis should be kicked out and/or face some sort of justice because they are all fascist settler colonists, Jewish or not. There is no excuse for genocide.
Get that through your empty white brainpan will you? Dumb fucking cracker. Its almost like you're paid not to understand the words you see on your screen.
When have I given any indication that I thought that? JFL that is such an absurd thing to say, grasping at 100 straws for a gotcha.
Some of them; as we've gone round and round, then are indigenous jews, bedouin, christains, druze, and circassians who are
If we can agree on that, (and thus on the ill-advisedness of shouting 'ALL ISRAELI'S MUST GO"), I think we can wrap up here.
Absolute nonsense. Israeli citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party. Thousands of Israeli citizens are anti-zionist activists.
They're all Israeli. I ask again; what's the population of Gazan Jews or even non-settlement Jews in the West Bank? If you're kicking out all Israeli's you're kicking out all the jews (or, as is what happening in your case, using some absolutely galaxy-brained definition of 'Israeli' that changes on the fly to accommodate your argument.)
Ok see this is it, you don't seem to understand what "isntreali" means. The entire so called "country" of isntreal is built on stolen land and mass killings.
It is a genocidal settler colonial project. Anyone who willingly identifies with it is a fucking scumbag, just like how anyone who identifies as a nazi should be punched at the very least. We've only gone "round and round" because the true nature of isntreal's existence is the fucking point you fail to fucking address.
That Isntreal itself is a fascist genocidal project of pure, fucking, evil. Before anything else. It is not a real country, nor a real ethnicity. It doesn't even have a proper unifying culture beyond genocide.
Therefore, this is just like being a bad faith pedant whenever someone says "death to america" or "plz Xi nuke the shit out of america to kill them all" by saying: "but askhaullyalslajsldalyy there are still native indigenous people there who identify as americans so thats muh ethnic cleansing", completely failing to realize that when you refer to a fascist settler colonial state by name you are referring to the settler population first and foremost. Its already baked into the name itself, because the name refers to the project of utter violence.
"b-b-but muh mass media definition!"
Do you fucking trust the mass media for anything? This is fucking hexbear.net, I don't need to be PC about this shit because I can make the assumption that we are all operating off a common skepticism of mainstream narratives and an understanding of what is truly going on. Because the truth is that Israel isnt real beyond a settler colonial project of utter genocide against Palestine.
And IF individuals and political groups from the populations you listed are patriotic isntreali citizens, then they also need to face some sort of justice like how the fucking Nazi collaborators did and still would if the world was a better place.
All in all this is just an issue of you being a braindead cracker who watches too much CNN and accidentally internalized their worldview, specifically about isntreal ackshually being real.
"Absolute nonsense. Nazi citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party." If you know what your "country" did and still don't renounce your citizenship then that doesn't make you less of a monster. I don't care if they virtue signal about not being Zionists, the very fact that they self-identify as "Isntreali" is a fucking crime against humanity. There are populations of Jews living in occupied Palestine (isntreal) who dont even acknowledge isntreal as their motherland and instead identify as Palestinian.
You fail to acknowledge that being jewish is no excuse for identifying with a settler colonial death machine.
There's the materialism we know and love.
Look if you had just said you'd like for me to join you in a ontological flight of fancy where words lose all common language meaning and become pliable as rubber I could have politely declined and we could have saved all this trouble.
Down here, Israel is a materially-extant and internationally-recognized state that is currently genociding the Palestinian people, and 'Israeli' refers to a citizen of Israel.
I should point out, by way of humorist aside, that I'm actually a neo-pragmatist non-realist, so in a very real sense the 'reality' of any given concept is not a question I'm interested in.
I can tell, I could hear you wanking all the way from america.
Only on Saturday mon frère.
Appeal to common sense btw. Just because most westerners believe propaganda doesn't mean reality is automatically rewritten.
Yeah down here in your ass where you have so thoroughly shoved your head, you fucking stupid condescending white piece of rotten elephant shit. You cant appeal to materialism and whatever narrative the state department has been shitting out for 80 years to manufacture consent for a genocide at the same time. Its fucking ridiculous.
The material reality on the fucking ground is that Isntreal is a settler colonial project of mass murder and genocide. Its entire existence would crumble if not for foreign direct investment and "lethal aid", how the hell can you call that a materially-extent "nation". Yes it is something, but it is not a nation with a culture beyond settler colonialism and the ethnic cleansing that follows. You're a idiot who constantly fails to acknowledge this because you have a liberal chauvinist worldview.
Isntreal in itself *is the genocide. How can you not fucking understand this?? It has no purpose in this world other than to enact a project of ethnic cleansing and be the west's regional puppet, absolutely fucking none.
Nope, it's alluding to the more formalized notion of plain meaning rule , which I take, in conjunction with the cooperative principle of communication . You're using essentially bespoke definitions of 'Israeli' and getting angry that anyone might read the plain meaning of 'Israeli' instead.
The plain meaning of 'state', again. Which is what I should have said originally, but I'll go back and fix that.
The genocide is the genocide, as in, the set of actions by the Israeli government that result in the expulsion, privation, immiseration and death of the local Palestinian population.
So you're in law school then, explains a lot. We aren't discussing Statutes though so I'm sorry but this is meaningless drivel pulled from your educational background to win an argument where you deny the origin of a genocide. You referred to a "commonsense" liberal understanding of the word "isntreal", not its statutory definition in the american legal system you stupid libshit.
LMFAOOOOO holy fucking shit you're actually trying to speak legalese in this discussion, bloody hilarious.
I'm not sure whether they taught you this in law school but Isntreal was created by the west to be a settler colonial puppet state to assert power in the region and enact a manifest destiny type genocide against Palestinians. It isn't that it was innocently created and then somehow turned evil, its very nature, an "original sin" if you like, is to be a racist project of mass murder. To place it on Palestinian land without consent of the indigenous population such that it could steal land and expand was indeed a genocidal act. Its existence necessitates stolen land and therefore is fundamentally genocidal.
You're a funny man son, I hope you dont become a corrupt lawyer in the future.
Nope!
We are not discussing statues, but as I pointed out, such notions aren't limited to statutory interpretation, as seen by the cooperative principle of communications advice on the avoidance of ambiguity. If you're not saying things with a goal toward being understood, that's fine, feel free to flout that.
There's no winning an argument. I'm trying to help you understand why your original comment was removed as an accidental call for ethnic cleansing. Obviously I'm failing at that goal but this isn't some debate where I'm trying to score goals with some audience. This thread is a week old, no one else is here.
Sure, there is no academic consensus on the intension of state, but the concept is still used, and Israel is universally considered to be within the extension of the definiens state in the academic community, in the general public, and by 85% of the government in the UN.
The problem with Israeli is the act of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, not some ontological evil essence nonsense. Stop the mass murder, reverse the ethnic cleansing, and peacefully integrate into the local polity and woohoo, it's party time. Pieds-noir were allowed to remain in Algeria, even if most of the opted not to., White's in South Africa and Rhodesia, White Poles in Haiti, the list goes on.
Go and open an account on lesswrong then, you have such amazing potential to be among the greatest minds.
Least pretentious redditor. Its still an appeal to commonsense to insist on a liberal worldview as being the "unambiguous" way to understand Isntreal.
I don't care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
....But not on hexbear.net where we all know that it isn't real.
In terms of "the academic community and the general public" that really depends on which country you are referring to. Of course in the west the public recognizes isntreal as legitimate because of propaganda and brainwashing, like how everyone supports capitalism. However, I doubt the "academic community" and "general public" in Palestine recognize the validity of the cancer currently resting on their stolen lands. Fuck the UN in particular because they created this entire mess in the first place.
"Bro ackshualalflasflasflsaflly isntreal wasnt in fact created with the express purpose of being a genocidal settler state thats just ontological evil essence nonsense bro."
The problem with isntreal is that it is a settler colonial project whose very creation and continued existence was/is contingent on mass murder and ethnic cleansing. They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
I've already reported some of the shit you said to our mods btw they will be here soon. If they don't come then I will call our most terminally online users and dogpile your yudowsky-lite ass for Zionism apologia.
Then what are we talking about?
It was understood to be, by several people. Once again you're doing this essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel. They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
You answered your own question.
Why do I care? Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
If I make some idiot craps their pants because they have a liberal worldview that shouldn't be my problem, especially not on this site where I thought we all shared the same leftist worldview that settler colonial soycieties necessitate utter destruction in their nascent form or else there will be massive, tragic genocide like what happened to the native americans, what could have happened to all of eastern europe, and what is currently happening in what remains of sovereign Palestine.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation. I now understand that its another argument in the arsenal of zionist apologia that the liberals have.
My son, the existence of Isntreal itself is a genocide. Look at the map I shared earlier, you cant just go to another country and tell the inhabitants "ok guys im going to start an ethnostate here, move or i kill you". Its fucking settler colonialism, isntreal needs to be destroyed for the genocide to "stop".
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
Haha, clearly.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation, I know that you don't intend to convey a call for ethnic cleansing and have stated that multiple times. The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
No? That hasn't gotten anything to do with pointing out that 'right to exist' and 'actual existence' are entirely separate concepts, with a 'right to exist' being literally immaterial. Israel has no right to exist, no legitimate claim to existence, nothing like any of that, and yet exists all the same and leverages that existence to continue to genocide the Palestinians. You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Ok keep denying a genocide then.
I've already demonstrated that you haven't engaged with over 90% of what I wrote because you're a candidate for lesswrong's membership. Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal, akin to america and nazi germany, due to the material necessities of its birth and continued existence. I was not born yesterday moron.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding of isntreal and its creation as a settler colonial project of genocide. Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
Are you stupid? Israel isnt real because it has no legitimacy as a state, its one giant administrative region for a slaughterhouse of human beings. That is what it means to be a settler colonial project. Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state and that Palestinians lost the land fair and square. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.
Me: They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians
You: Keep denying genocide then
We're both tugging at selective threads of the conversation based on our goals for it, cause I'm still waiting on that census data of Gazan jews from you.
I didn't ignore it, I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some 'essence' of Israel.
That's not what bad faith means. That's just being wrong.
I've probably said 15 times that Israeli has consistently engaged in settler-colonialism and genocide, and that such settler-colonialism and genocide even predated the establishment of the state of Israel.
You're conveniently ignoring my main point but ok.
Im not making any soy claims about the "essence" of Isntreal. The fucking material reality on the ground is that it could not have existed without a massive genocide. The very notion of "israel" necessitates land stolen and people removed from Palestine. Just like america and nazi germany before it. This is why it needs to be destroyed. Its a deeply unjust situation and im fucking shocked that you think that mass loss of life and land theft to create an ethnostate is "metaphysical drivel".
The individual was not operating in "bad faith" but the argument is a bad faith argument due to its dishonest presuppositions rooted in Zionist apologia.
Because they are a settler colonial project, not a proper nation. You don't get it, the creation of Isntreal itself was an act of settler-colonialism and genocide.
As I said:
"Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state that shouldnt immediately be militarily opposed by every country on the planet if they had a sense of justice. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs."
Your main point to me seems to be that 'Israeli' should be understood to mean 'settler' before anything else. I've expressed at length that this runs the risk of being interpreted in an alarming fashion, and for a little more effort, this can be avoided. You don't seem to care about that. Which sure, that's fine.
Is that not your main point?
Well then don't use phrases like 'original sin'
I don't, I've accurately described those actions as genocide, repeatedly.
v.s.
Pick one you smug liberal piece of dog shit.
And that isntreal itself is a cancer on the world that needs to be treated with the same military and cultural response that nazi germany did in the 20th century.
*also it isn't "should be" but "is", this is an important distinction because I don't recognize it as a sovereign state since this implies a dismissal of Palestine's sovereignty and a
n acceptancedismissal of their genocide /*as a natural state of affairsI fucking know what it means you pedantic cuck. I thought it would be a convenient shorthand as a way of conveying the material nature of isntreal's creation and existence but nvm.
By people with a liberal worldview who I would have never thought to encounter as users of this site but that was clearly a wrong assumption.
"All israelis must leave" is fucking crystal clear because it the literal reality on the ground that israel is a settler colonial project that is in the same vein as nazi germany and america before it. If people have a stupid liberal worldview then fuck them I don't care. 90% of the site agrees with me and thought OP was an idiot.
There's no contradiction to pick through. Nazi Germany can and was opposed without having to sift through the metaphysical fluff of whether or not they 'happened to be' or 'must have been' evil genocidal maniacs. And further, neither you nor I believe that the US and Britain opposed Nazi Germany because it was "ontologically evil". Their concerns and opposition were pragmatic. Heck, even the KPD offered pragmatic support for the German Nazi party in one of the biggest accelerationist self-owns in history.
No one believed that anyone had made any ethnic cleansing calls, and when I linked to yours as an example. Everyone's response was 'oh yeah, you gotta report that shit', and it was deleted as a [accidental] call for ethnic cleansing.
Natural state of affairs? Nonsense. Actual state of affairs, as in the state of Israel is using state apparatus to actually genocide actual Palestinians? Undeniable.
Because they literally were??? Like fucking Isntreal??? *I dont see why you say that calling a spade a spade is "metaphysical fluff" like cmon, its fucking undeniably evil to commit genocide.
I was referring to the people of the Soviet Union and its neighbors opposing it because it was an evil cancer eating their lands and killing their people in concentration camps.
Stupid, stupid rat bastard.
If you acknowledge the statehood of isntreal then you imply that invading another sovereign country with a foreign force to commit genocide and land theft is a valid way to create a nation.
You're like one of those pretentious wannabe academic types who thinks that using a bunch of random factoids to unintentionally run "muh nuance" apologetics for the status quo is being smart.
Yes, clearly, but notice that we're talking about the evilness of actions, not attributes or essences.
Yes, it was evil because of what it did, not because of some essence of it.
Let's not pretend that everyone agreed with you, and let's further note that all the examples you cite are more careful than you, calling for the expulsions of settlers, not all Israelis.
It's not a valid way to create a state, but it is an actual way to create a state, it is how Israel was created, and pretending Israel doesn't exist doesn't do anything to prevent Israel from acting in a state's capacity.
I do have bad news for you on that front.
Are you already an academic? Feel bad for your students bud, to have a liberal as their teacher. I hope they all submit their work 9 seconds before the deadline so you have to speed grade it lmao
The action of creating isntreal was the displacement and genocide of Palestinians. Your argument is still invalid.
Also, observe how,
Transitions to:
"w-well according to a source that is different to the one I was referring to originally!"
*I mean even without addressing these images you are a fool who didnt check what people actually said to you when you made that post which you referred to as a gotcha just now lmao
Youre a total idiot who thinks "israel isnt real" literally means that isntreal doesnt exist and is just an imaginary phenomenon. No, as I explained before, it literally means it has no legitimacy as a state and must be destroyed.
Sorry this is where we disagree, I don't recognize the legitimacy of its statehood because doing so would be to recognize that it has claims to lands that it stole by genociding the people living there. This is wrong and unjust.
I recognize that "israel" refers to something, and that something is an invading force of settler occupiers who run a human slaughterhouse. Its a settler colonial society at its core with all of its systems of power geared towards the genocide of Palestine to steal land. Just like how a gun is designed to shoot bullets, Isntreal is designed to kill Palestinians.
No, this displacement and genocide preceded the incorporation of the state of Israel as a political entity, continues currently, and could extend beyond it's existence if there were a devolution into the local communes.
I don't recognize the legitimacy of it's statehood because getting hung up on legitimacy is metaphysical drivel. Israel makes and exercises claims to stolen land, legitimate or not. This act of stealing the land and holding it from the indigenous population is to be opposed regardless of what intellectual or legal framework can be roped around it to 'legitimize' it. Talk of Israel's 'right to defend itself' is metaphysical drivel attempting to legitimate genocide.
No? Lot of words to say absolutely nothing but unintentional Zionist apologia. "Hurr our country is ok bcuz the region already had a genocide!!!!"
The act of creating isntreal necessitated the conquest of Palestine by Britain and the forceful settlement of Palestinian land.
*And "this displacement and genocide preceded the incorporation of the state of Isntreal" is a stupid thing to say because its literally saying "bro the map was green from the beginning in the early 20th century!" As if the genocide was going to happen anyways and then Isntreal was just created by accident lmao
Literally what I said but ok. "B-bbbubt akshualasflaslfy you-ACK" its not an "intellectual" or "legal" argument to say that its wrong and unjust to genocide a population.
So is talk of "Israel's" "right to exist" because a settler colonial state that is only there to steal land and commits genocide must be destroyed no matter what.