It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
No one is ignoring this fact. I've even cited demographic numbers in this very conversation with you.
Look if you want to say that essentially all the Jews of Israel need to be expelled, including indigenous ones, go for it, but don't act all surprised when you get accused of advocating for ethnic cleansing, cause ya are when you say things with that effect, even if you think it's justified. If Vietnam had eradicated or expelled the Hmong like many of them feared (enough to flee) for allying with the US, that still would have been ethnic cleansing. Happily, the communists saw no reason to engage in that.
Israel can stops it's genocide, enact a right of return, and transition to a single state Palestine and Israeli under a secular framework with protections for minorities without expelling essentially all it's Jews, and to argue otherwise is to buy into Zionist talking points.
You can't even respond to:
lol. lmao again. Truly showing how much you have failed to internalize what "genocide" means when its against brown people. Gormless cracker with shit for brains.
I said "all israelis" not "all the jews of israel" you stupid fuck. Identifying with a fascist settler colonial project should indeed have repercussions, jewish or not. You haven't seemed to grasp how fucking evil isntreal is, its just as bad as nazi germany and identifying with it in this day and age should be addressed in the same manner.
There is no "and Israeli" and "secular framework", Palestine is a Sunni Muslim country and whether they secularize or not is up to them. A genocidal settler colonial project has no right to continue existing in any form whatsoever. You're basically doing "muh TINA" soft advocacy for the continued existence of a settler colonial project.
"akshually if you think that the settler soyciety shouldn't set the terms and be in control of its own dissolution without its population being forced to give back their homes you're akshually supporting Zionism"
You're a liberal.
False analogy btw. The genocide that isntreal and the west is doing is more comparable to what the nazis did to eastern europe. And yes, nazi collaborators were fucking shot when the invading force was expelled.
The jews of Israel are a subset of all Israelis how are you still struggling with this basic concept. And you darned sure don't intend to remove the Israeli bedouin population.
You also ran your mouth about Gazan Jews and ignored my follow ups about them when it became clear such a thing doesn't exist in any appreciable numbers, displaying how much you actually know about the subject.
If the Don cossocks has been expelled or liquidated in their entirety due to some of them collaborating with the Nazis, that too would be ethnic cleansing, even though Nazis were a fundamentally fascist and genocidal project. The removal of native ethnic Germans from eastern and central Europe following WW2? Ethnic cleansing.
This isn't hard stuff. You don't get to remove entire groups of people for state crimes against humanity without carefully and specifically evaluating complicity in those crimes. Otherwise you're ethnic cleansing.
Israelis are settler colonial demons that need to be kicked out, and being jewish doesnt mean you can occupy stolen land and aid in ethnic cleansing without consequence, how are you still struggling with these basic concepts?
Ok so its "non appreciable numbers" when the oppressed population has Jews lmao you bloodthirsty racist fuck.
Here's the thing, all Isntreali citizens are fascist collaborators in genocide like how all Nazis were fascists for identifying with a genocidal state. Isntreal is a fundamentally fascist state, isntreali is not an ethnicity just like how nazi isnt. Saying otherwise is a lie constructed by the liberal mainstream media.
The Don Cumsocks on the other hand are an ethnic group that existed from before the Nazis, so expelling them all would be, in fact, ethnic cleansing, because "Don Cossack" is an ethnicity and does not imply that all of them are fascists.
AS SUCH: Nobody is saying that all Jews should be kicked out of the region because some of them are isntreali, the line is that all self-identifying israelis should be kicked out and/or face some sort of justice because they are all fascist settler colonists, Jewish or not. There is no excuse for genocide.
Get that through your empty white brainpan will you? Dumb fucking cracker. Its almost like you're paid not to understand the words you see on your screen.
When have I given any indication that I thought that? JFL that is such an absurd thing to say, grasping at 100 straws for a gotcha.
Some of them; as we've gone round and round, then are indigenous jews, bedouin, christains, druze, and circassians who are
If we can agree on that, (and thus on the ill-advisedness of shouting 'ALL ISRAELI'S MUST GO"), I think we can wrap up here.
Absolute nonsense. Israeli citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party. Thousands of Israeli citizens are anti-zionist activists.
They're all Israeli. I ask again; what's the population of Gazan Jews or even non-settlement Jews in the West Bank? If you're kicking out all Israeli's you're kicking out all the jews (or, as is what happening in your case, using some absolutely galaxy-brained definition of 'Israeli' that changes on the fly to accommodate your argument.)
Ok see this is it, you don't seem to understand what "isntreali" means. The entire so called "country" of isntreal is built on stolen land and mass killings.
It is a genocidal settler colonial project. Anyone who willingly identifies with it is a fucking scumbag, just like how anyone who identifies as a nazi should be punched at the very least. We've only gone "round and round" because the true nature of isntreal's existence is the fucking point you fail to fucking address.
That Isntreal itself is a fascist genocidal project of pure, fucking, evil. Before anything else. It is not a real country, nor a real ethnicity. It doesn't even have a proper unifying culture beyond genocide.
Therefore, this is just like being a bad faith pedant whenever someone says "death to america" or "plz Xi nuke the shit out of america to kill them all" by saying: "but askhaullyalslajsldalyy there are still native indigenous people there who identify as americans so thats muh ethnic cleansing", completely failing to realize that when you refer to a fascist settler colonial state by name you are referring to the settler population first and foremost. Its already baked into the name itself, because the name refers to the project of utter violence.
"b-b-but muh mass media definition!"
Do you fucking trust the mass media for anything? This is fucking hexbear.net, I don't need to be PC about this shit because I can make the assumption that we are all operating off a common skepticism of mainstream narratives and an understanding of what is truly going on. Because the truth is that Israel isnt real beyond a settler colonial project of utter genocide against Palestine.
And IF individuals and political groups from the populations you listed are patriotic isntreali citizens, then they also need to face some sort of justice like how the fucking Nazi collaborators did and still would if the world was a better place.
All in all this is just an issue of you being a braindead cracker who watches too much CNN and accidentally internalized their worldview, specifically about isntreal ackshually being real.
"Absolute nonsense. Nazi citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party." If you know what your "country" did and still don't renounce your citizenship then that doesn't make you less of a monster. I don't care if they virtue signal about not being Zionists, the very fact that they self-identify as "Isntreali" is a fucking crime against humanity. There are populations of Jews living in occupied Palestine (isntreal) who dont even acknowledge isntreal as their motherland and instead identify as Palestinian.
You fail to acknowledge that being jewish is no excuse for identifying with a settler colonial death machine.
There's the materialism we know and love.
Look if you had just said you'd like for me to join you in a ontological flight of fancy where words lose all common language meaning and become pliable as rubber I could have politely declined and we could have saved all this trouble.
Down here, Israel is a materially-extant and internationally-recognized state that is currently genociding the Palestinian people, and 'Israeli' refers to a citizen of Israel.
I should point out, by way of humorist aside, that I'm actually a neo-pragmatist non-realist, so in a very real sense the 'reality' of any given concept is not a question I'm interested in.
I can tell, I could hear you wanking all the way from america.
Only on Saturday mon frère.
Appeal to common sense btw. Just because most westerners believe propaganda doesn't mean reality is automatically rewritten.
Yeah down here in your ass where you have so thoroughly shoved your head, you fucking stupid condescending white piece of rotten elephant shit. You cant appeal to materialism and whatever narrative the state department has been shitting out for 80 years to manufacture consent for a genocide at the same time. Its fucking ridiculous.
The material reality on the fucking ground is that Isntreal is a settler colonial project of mass murder and genocide. Its entire existence would crumble if not for foreign direct investment and "lethal aid", how the hell can you call that a materially-extent "nation". Yes it is something, but it is not a nation with a culture beyond settler colonialism and the ethnic cleansing that follows. You're a idiot who constantly fails to acknowledge this because you have a liberal chauvinist worldview.
Isntreal in itself *is the genocide. How can you not fucking understand this?? It has no purpose in this world other than to enact a project of ethnic cleansing and be the west's regional puppet, absolutely fucking none.
Nope, it's alluding to the more formalized notion of plain meaning rule , which I take, in conjunction with the cooperative principle of communication . You're using essentially bespoke definitions of 'Israeli' and getting angry that anyone might read the plain meaning of 'Israeli' instead.
The plain meaning of 'state', again. Which is what I should have said originally, but I'll go back and fix that.
The genocide is the genocide, as in, the set of actions by the Israeli government that result in the expulsion, privation, immiseration and death of the local Palestinian population.
So you're in law school then, explains a lot. We aren't discussing Statutes though so I'm sorry but this is meaningless drivel pulled from your educational background to win an argument where you deny the origin of a genocide. You referred to a "commonsense" liberal understanding of the word "isntreal", not its statutory definition in the american legal system you stupid libshit.
LMFAOOOOO holy fucking shit you're actually trying to speak legalese in this discussion, bloody hilarious.
I'm not sure whether they taught you this in law school but Isntreal was created by the west to be a settler colonial puppet state to assert power in the region and enact a manifest destiny type genocide against Palestinians. It isn't that it was innocently created and then somehow turned evil, its very nature, an "original sin" if you like, is to be a racist project of mass murder. To place it on Palestinian land without consent of the indigenous population such that it could steal land and expand was indeed a genocidal act. Its existence necessitates stolen land and therefore is fundamentally genocidal.
You're a funny man son, I hope you dont become a corrupt lawyer in the future.
Nope!
We are not discussing statues, but as I pointed out, such notions aren't limited to statutory interpretation, as seen by the cooperative principle of communications advice on the avoidance of ambiguity. If you're not saying things with a goal toward being understood, that's fine, feel free to flout that.
There's no winning an argument. I'm trying to help you understand why your original comment was removed as an accidental call for ethnic cleansing. Obviously I'm failing at that goal but this isn't some debate where I'm trying to score goals with some audience. This thread is a week old, no one else is here.
Sure, there is no academic consensus on the intension of state, but the concept is still used, and Israel is universally considered to be within the extension of the definiens state in the academic community, in the general public, and by 85% of the government in the UN.
The problem with Israeli is the act of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, not some ontological evil essence nonsense. Stop the mass murder, reverse the ethnic cleansing, and peacefully integrate into the local polity and woohoo, it's party time. Pieds-noir were allowed to remain in Algeria, even if most of the opted not to., White's in South Africa and Rhodesia, White Poles in Haiti, the list goes on.
Go and open an account on lesswrong then, you have such amazing potential to be among the greatest minds.
Least pretentious redditor. Its still an appeal to commonsense to insist on a liberal worldview as being the "unambiguous" way to understand Isntreal.
I don't care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
....But not on hexbear.net where we all know that it isn't real.
In terms of "the academic community and the general public" that really depends on which country you are referring to. Of course in the west the public recognizes isntreal as legitimate because of propaganda and brainwashing, like how everyone supports capitalism. However, I doubt the "academic community" and "general public" in Palestine recognize the validity of the cancer currently resting on their stolen lands. Fuck the UN in particular because they created this entire mess in the first place.
"Bro ackshualalflasflasflsaflly isntreal wasnt in fact created with the express purpose of being a genocidal settler state thats just ontological evil essence nonsense bro."
The problem with isntreal is that it is a settler colonial project whose very creation and continued existence was/is contingent on mass murder and ethnic cleansing. They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
I've already reported some of the shit you said to our mods btw they will be here soon. If they don't come then I will call our most terminally online users and dogpile your yudowsky-lite ass for Zionism apologia.
Then what are we talking about?
It was understood to be, by several people. Once again you're doing this essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel. They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
You answered your own question.
Why do I care? Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
If I make some idiot craps their pants because they have a liberal worldview that shouldn't be my problem, especially not on this site where I thought we all shared the same leftist worldview that settler colonial soycieties necessitate utter destruction in their nascent form or else there will be massive, tragic genocide like what happened to the native americans, what could have happened to all of eastern europe, and what is currently happening in what remains of sovereign Palestine.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation. I now understand that its another argument in the arsenal of zionist apologia that the liberals have.
My son, the existence of Isntreal itself is a genocide. Look at the map I shared earlier, you cant just go to another country and tell the inhabitants "ok guys im going to start an ethnostate here, move or i kill you". Its fucking settler colonialism, isntreal needs to be destroyed for the genocide to "stop".
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
Haha, clearly.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation, I know that you don't intend to convey a call for ethnic cleansing and have stated that multiple times. The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
No? That hasn't gotten anything to do with pointing out that 'right to exist' and 'actual existence' are entirely separate concepts, with a 'right to exist' being literally immaterial. Israel has no right to exist, no legitimate claim to existence, nothing like any of that, and yet exists all the same and leverages that existence to continue to genocide the Palestinians. You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Ok keep denying a genocide then.
I've already demonstrated that you haven't engaged with over 90% of what I wrote because you're a candidate for lesswrong's membership. Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal, akin to america and nazi germany, due to the material necessities of its birth and continued existence. I was not born yesterday moron.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding of isntreal and its creation as a settler colonial project of genocide. Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
Are you stupid? Israel isnt real because it has no legitimacy as a state, its one giant administrative region for a slaughterhouse of human beings. That is what it means to be a settler colonial project. Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state and that Palestinians lost the land fair and square. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.
Me: They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians
You: Keep denying genocide then
We're both tugging at selective threads of the conversation based on our goals for it, cause I'm still waiting on that census data of Gazan jews from you.
I didn't ignore it, I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some 'essence' of Israel.
That's not what bad faith means. That's just being wrong.
I've probably said 15 times that Israeli has consistently engaged in settler-colonialism and genocide, and that such settler-colonialism and genocide even predated the establishment of the state of Israel.
You're conveniently ignoring my main point but ok.
Im not making any soy claims about the "essence" of Isntreal. The fucking material reality on the ground is that it could not have existed without a massive genocide. The very notion of "israel" necessitates land stolen and people removed from Palestine. Just like america and nazi germany before it. This is why it needs to be destroyed. Its a deeply unjust situation and im fucking shocked that you think that mass loss of life and land theft to create an ethnostate is "metaphysical drivel".
The individual was not operating in "bad faith" but the argument is a bad faith argument due to its dishonest presuppositions rooted in Zionist apologia.
Because they are a settler colonial project, not a proper nation. You don't get it, the creation of Isntreal itself was an act of settler-colonialism and genocide.
As I said:
"Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state that shouldnt immediately be militarily opposed by every country on the planet if they had a sense of justice. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs."
Your main point to me seems to be that 'Israeli' should be understood to mean 'settler' before anything else. I've expressed at length that this runs the risk of being interpreted in an alarming fashion, and for a little more effort, this can be avoided. You don't seem to care about that. Which sure, that's fine.
Is that not your main point?
Well then don't use phrases like 'original sin'
I don't, I've accurately described those actions as genocide, repeatedly.
v.s.
Pick one you smug liberal piece of dog shit.
And that isntreal itself is a cancer on the world that needs to be treated with the same military and cultural response that nazi germany did in the 20th century.
*also it isn't "should be" but "is", this is an important distinction because I don't recognize it as a sovereign state since this implies a dismissal of Palestine's sovereignty and a
n acceptancedismissal of their genocide /*as a natural state of affairsI fucking know what it means you pedantic cuck. I thought it would be a convenient shorthand as a way of conveying the material nature of isntreal's creation and existence but nvm.
By people with a liberal worldview who I would have never thought to encounter as users of this site but that was clearly a wrong assumption.
"All israelis must leave" is fucking crystal clear because it the literal reality on the ground that israel is a settler colonial project that is in the same vein as nazi germany and america before it. If people have a stupid liberal worldview then fuck them I don't care. 90% of the site agrees with me and thought OP was an idiot.
There's no contradiction to pick through. Nazi Germany can and was opposed without having to sift through the metaphysical fluff of whether or not they 'happened to be' or 'must have been' evil genocidal maniacs. And further, neither you nor I believe that the US and Britain opposed Nazi Germany because it was "ontologically evil". Their concerns and opposition were pragmatic. Heck, even the KPD offered pragmatic support for the German Nazi party in one of the biggest accelerationist self-owns in history.
No one believed that anyone had made any ethnic cleansing calls, and when I linked to yours as an example. Everyone's response was 'oh yeah, you gotta report that shit', and it was deleted as a [accidental] call for ethnic cleansing.
Natural state of affairs? Nonsense. Actual state of affairs, as in the state of Israel is using state apparatus to actually genocide actual Palestinians? Undeniable.
Because they literally were??? Like fucking Isntreal??? *I dont see why you say that calling a spade a spade is "metaphysical fluff" like cmon, its fucking undeniably evil to commit genocide.
I was referring to the people of the Soviet Union and its neighbors opposing it because it was an evil cancer eating their lands and killing their people in concentration camps.
Stupid, stupid rat bastard.
If you acknowledge the statehood of isntreal then you imply that invading another sovereign country with a foreign force to commit genocide and land theft is a valid way to create a nation.
You're like one of those pretentious wannabe academic types who thinks that using a bunch of random factoids to unintentionally run "muh nuance" apologetics for the status quo is being smart.
Yes, clearly, but notice that we're talking about the evilness of actions, not attributes or essences.
Yes, it was evil because of what it did, not because of some essence of it.
Let's not pretend that everyone agreed with you, and let's further note that all the examples you cite are more careful than you, calling for the expulsions of settlers, not all Israelis.
It's not a valid way to create a state, but it is an actual way to create a state, it is how Israel was created, and pretending Israel doesn't exist doesn't do anything to prevent Israel from acting in a state's capacity.
I do have bad news for you on that front.
Are you already an academic? Feel bad for your students bud, to have a liberal as their teacher. I hope they all submit their work 9 seconds before the deadline so you have to speed grade it lmao
The action of creating isntreal was the displacement and genocide of Palestinians. Your argument is still invalid.
Also, observe how,
Transitions to:
"w-well according to a source that is different to the one I was referring to originally!"
*I mean even without addressing these images you are a fool who didnt check what people actually said to you when you made that post which you referred to as a gotcha just now lmao
Youre a total idiot who thinks "israel isnt real" literally means that isntreal doesnt exist and is just an imaginary phenomenon. No, as I explained before, it literally means it has no legitimacy as a state and must be destroyed.
Sorry this is where we disagree, I don't recognize the legitimacy of its statehood because doing so would be to recognize that it has claims to lands that it stole by genociding the people living there. This is wrong and unjust.
I recognize that "israel" refers to something, and that something is an invading force of settler occupiers who run a human slaughterhouse. Its a settler colonial society at its core with all of its systems of power geared towards the genocide of Palestine to steal land. Just like how a gun is designed to shoot bullets, Isntreal is designed to kill Palestinians.
No, this displacement and genocide preceded the incorporation of the state of Israel as a political entity, continues currently, and could extend beyond it's existence if there were a devolution into the local communes.
I don't recognize the legitimacy of it's statehood because getting hung up on legitimacy is metaphysical drivel. Israel makes and exercises claims to stolen land, legitimate or not. This act of stealing the land and holding it from the indigenous population is to be opposed regardless of what intellectual or legal framework can be roped around it to 'legitimize' it. Talk of Israel's 'right to defend itself' is metaphysical drivel attempting to legitimate genocide.
No? Lot of words to say absolutely nothing but unintentional Zionist apologia. "Hurr our country is ok bcuz the region already had a genocide!!!!"
The act of creating isntreal necessitated the conquest of Palestine by Britain and the forceful settlement of Palestinian land.
*And "this displacement and genocide preceded the incorporation of the state of Isntreal" is a stupid thing to say because its literally saying "bro the map was green from the beginning in the early 20th century!" As if the genocide was going to happen anyways and then Isntreal was just created by accident lmao
Literally what I said but ok. "B-bbbubt akshualasflaslfy you-ACK" its not an "intellectual" or "legal" argument to say that its wrong and unjust to genocide a population.
So is talk of "Israel's" "right to exist" because a settler colonial state that is only there to steal land and commits genocide must be destroyed no matter what.