I've been speaking with other more informed communists and they've told me that none actually exist. Is this true?
China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate
North Korea: Undemocratically ruled by the Kim dynasty. Jong un indulges lavishly at the expense of his citizens, ordering millions in fine wine and trips from Denis Rodman. They might be the most socialist though, as Juche seems to otherwise be democratic.
Cuba: Sanctions have taken a massive toll, but even taking that into account the country still has its own problems. They have massive food shortages and inventory probs and aren't self sufficient after 60+ years. Why couldn't they've use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery? The Soviets supported them heavily. They seem to be incredibly mismanaged or corrupt
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_suicide_rate,WHO(2019).svg
https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/suicide-deterrent-net/
North Korea is ruled by the Supreme People's Assembly (최고인민회의) which is directly elected.
No reason not to. Lots of Soviet farm machinery there.
I can give a longer response when I'm not on mobile, but so I know where to start: what have you read? What sources have you read about China's economy, for instance?
How do you feel about this North Korean doctrine?
Can you provide a source for this? No use in responding if we don't even know if it's real
do not use those links, one has no citations and the other is from an organization funded by the National Endowment for Democracy
The content of North Korean doctrine seems particularly discomforting to people here, lol. Not sure why this is the country people feel the need to stand up for
https://web.archive.org/web/20141022133221/http://www2.law.columbia.edu/course_00S_L9436_001/North%20Korea%20materials/10%20principles%20of%20juche.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20170906180510/http://www.internationallawbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Ten-Great-Principles-of-the-Establishment-of-the-Unitary-ideology.pdf
DID YOU JUST POST THE CIA SOURCES A SECOND FUCKING TIME
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lol that second link is the US state department, you're a rube.
they literally linked an org funded by the National Endowment for Democracy
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"A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA" - then NED president Allen Weinstein
NED's President Carl Gershman said that the NED was created because "It would be terrible for democratic groups around the world to be seen as subsidized by the CIA."
It's literally a group that does CIA stuff, without using the CIA name.
You claim that the NED is CIA, but have you considered that the link above is not literally cia.gov?
You just doubled down on using Holocaust denial logic. I wonder why.
But let me be more specific. You believe "The government did something bad once, therefore anything I can tie to the government was also done by the government." Nazis also hate the fact the US entered World War II.
It's more similar to not believing Goebbels radio broadcasts about the USSR. We don't distrust NED, the CIA, or the State Department just because they did something bad once, but because it is both a consistent pattern of spreading misinformation and because it is their stated purpose to rile up dissident groups in US opposed countries.
Okay, then link to the 10 principles yourself.
Nazis use the same logic as you to say Hitler never ordered the Holocaust. Why are you using Nazi logic?
Lol I'm not the one that gives a ahit about it, or brought it up. Go back to
So you concede to the fact you are using the same logic as Nazis in the same way is Nazis, and your only response is "I don't care"?
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Are you capable of posting hog?
Are you a leftist? And if you are, why do you feel the need to defend dictatorships?
Are you a poster? And if you are, why do you feel the need to hide your hog?
So you concede to the fact you are using the same logic as Nazis in the same way is Nazis, and your only response is "I don't care"?
So you concede to the fact that you are a
-brained turbolib with no hog to post and your only response is "You're a Nazi"?
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HOG OUT OR LOG OUT YOU SEALIONING FUCKHEAD
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Bruh you've been engaging in bad faith this whole time why do I owe you civility?
Also: Where's your hog?
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And you arrived at this conclusion how, exactly?
Actually never mind that question. Answer my request for hog first.
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Wow, resorting to ad hominem. Sad.
the coward deleted their comments instead of posting hog
Youre just going full
rn
denounce your CIA sources
Denounce Nazis
I thought our ideological ancestors actions in '45 is a pretty solid denouncement of nazis
Denounce the CIA, who uses nazis
you've been calling people nazis for disagreeing with you.
You are so full of contradictions that any more and your cells will turn into a fission bomb.
hilarious routine you've got
So, I want to engage in as good of faith possible, here.
It's not about whether it's discomforting, it's about whether or not what you're saying is even true. I have zero reason to believe what you posted has any basis in fact. You initially copy/pasted it with no citation.
Now, the links you're giving are decidedly not Korean. The DPRK puts out works of theory and the like, fairly readily. All I'm asking for is a primary source for this.
But let's assume it's 100% true, for a minute.
Even if it is, and Korean socialism does look the way that these 10 points describe, why might that be? What would drive such an insular, personality-cult driven, set of doctrine?
Could it, perchance, be the fact that the United States set about occupying half of the Korean Peninsula? Reinstalling many of the Japanese colonial administrators the Korean people had just spent decades trying to kick out?
Might it have something to do with the fact that the US bombed the entire peninsula so heavily, that US pilots complained that they were no more targets, and that Koreans literally began living in caves and a result?
If you actually care about Koreans, and are unsettled by the centralization of power in the DPRK, then you ought to recognize that it's US imperial policy that has irrevocably shaped the destiny of the Korean peninsula.
If there's any reason to "Stand up" for the DPRK, it's for the exact reasons you've laid out. If a society is too heal, and overcome the sort of backward despotism you've presented, then the answer is surely to not isolate it more. To not continue to fuel the siege mentality that drives the state ideology. But rather, to work for peace and unification, so that the whole of Korea might, once again, be able to shape its own destiny.
So I read through his links. There isn't a citation to any of these interviews (a necessity for actual academic journalism) to make sure things aren't being taken out of context. The first document even says that "North Korean experts disagree with these things because they view North Korea through the lens of their propaganda." And even then there are only three uncited interviews, one which is obviously an absolutely outrageous lie that breaking the frame of a photo of Kim Jon Il while polishing it is grounds for the execution of an entire family.
For context, the atrocities of the Pinochet regime are backed up by literally hundreds of recorded, cited interviews, some even by guards who participated in the violence admitting their culpability years later (though usually with the excuse that they weren't the ones committing the mass rape, etc.).
This is nothing. This is unsubstantial.
"North Korea has shitty policies because it has been isolated from the rest of the world," is a statement that I agree wholeheartedly with, and yes it should be opened to things like international trade. The same holds true for Cuba, etc.
finally a half good opinion
But unless you have the bigotry of low expectations, you should be expecting more out of the country
What exactly do you want out of a society that was burnt to the ground and survived an attempted genocide? The U.S. dropped more ordinance on NK than they used in the entirety of WW2 and destruction of Japanese cities was a fraction of what the Korean people suffered. The U.S. then helped prop up an authoritarian police state in the South for decades, I'd likely be skeptical of what western democracy entailed after watching entire towns burned to a crisp with napalm. Do you also expect the Gazan population to be a liberal democracy?
Do you use this logic to excuse the third Reich after Germany got decimated
A country involuntarily split and then decimated by a foreign power because they were likely to adopt a communist government is definitely the same as the Nazis, wow you're very smart.
If you only knew how smart you sounded, fash
Do you also deride the Gazan population for not being the most progressive liberal democracy in the world? Why or why not? I'm sure after seeing their families and homes turned to ash they need to condemn Hamas right?
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oh thats where they went? They're a 'do you denounce Hamas?' lib?
Honestly how does this just keep going
My favorite part is they asked if I supported Hamas and then assured themselves the answer would be no.
they're PMing me too and combing through my profile to find dirt on me lol, definitely not mad no siree
From the river to the sea
oh noes apparently my support for Hamas makes me
Checks notes
A zionist?
The rarest of cat girls, the red fascist zionist.
I just deleted them, you should too, keeping them in the open is important to silence the 2nd coming of LiberalSocialist
I'm just wondering what Vaush Patreon tier they're at.
Explain further, your quips aren't politics.
I am surprised you are allowed to believe North Korea is a shitty country with shitty policies
no one controls my beliefs, and who cited the CIA for theirs again?
Are you going to disagree with the content, or are you going to continue using your Nazi logic of attacking the (alleged) source and it's purported jewishness, rather than addressing its content
"Citations needed."
"Ummm akshually that's something a NAZI would do."
"Children in North Korea eat rats and then the rats eat the children. You must engage with whatever I claim or you're a red facist.
the smugness of these dronies is always their only personality, its very boring
You have your citations. Engage with their contents
"Yes I identify as an anarchist, yes I uncritically believe everything the CIA and U.S. state dept tell me, we exist. Henry Kissinger is a great man."
So, you refuse to engage with the contents, do I have that right
the contents are CIA prop, we aint reading a bit of that. You could just denounce that citation and bring in new ones. There are countless anti DPRK orgs
of course most are funded by the SKorean government or the CIA but you could make an effort.
Okay, so you don't trust Human Rights Watch to diagnose the situation in Gaza either.
I guess that's all we can talk about, because you can't even bring yourself to read anything that you think is too globalist.
so you've moved from "you're a nazi" to "you're a zionist"
you have to be a bit, but its painful to realize that you're just another real, dumb liberal
Did you have a point other than lying in an attempt to insult me
The fact you just said that proves to me you are incapable of self-reflection
You're doing all the self-reflecting for me. Do you want to talk about actual ideas, or do you want to keep screaming insults and using ad hominems
You have the reflective ability of Dark matter
Sure thing fash
I love how you think you've made me mad with your inability to hold a basic informed opinion
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-08-23/h_e2776aabeda048da22aebc586654236f
HRW is calling for an investigation into the Israeli bombing of a Gazan ambulance as a war crime.
It's a real shame your brain has been reduced to nothing but mindless campism
Are you saying im a zionist for not believing your shit takes on North Korea? Are you being stupid on purpose or do you find it funny?
Are you telling me you believe things human rights watch says?
Are you telling me Im a nazi for not believing your CIA org? Don't derail the convo
denounce your CIA source and I'll give a shit
The CIA is evil.
Can you personally condemn all state affiliated media from the CCP, Vietnam, and Russia?
CPC* but I wouldn't expect an uninformed liberal to know, and they haven't created a worldwide network of lies and nazis (unlike the CIA)
Vietnam yeah, they don't have a distrustful track record and I am proudly biased towards socialism (unlike your bias towards capitalist dogs)
Russia ain't communist, do you live in the 80s? That would explain how you fell for the NED.
So you do condemn all CCP state propaganda, right?
Do you condemn the propaganda of the Nazi Party from 1939 to 1945?
what are these little hoops you want me to jump through? You know the answers! What do you even have left at this point.
The CPC has arranged for the publication of many communist works, especially but not exclusively Mao's. I endorse their doing so. Am I a Nazi?
"Disagreeing with me and actually questioning the viability of your sources makes you a nazi, I am very smart."
Who let this child into the adult section? I gotta talk to their parents.
Why don't you read the documents and tell me whether they are right or wrong? You seem obsessed with calling out the source as being globalist
If you don't believe in something because it's been created an arm of the US government for propaganda purposes, that's just like what the Nazis do.
Seriously what is this shit, of course something can be not credible because of the source, would you believe something you read on InfoNews
Yeah, sure. Same goes for all Chinese state media, all North Korean state media, all Russian state media, all Vietnamese state media, etc. All of those things could be 100% dishonest, and anything that agrees with those countries might be paid by them.
Which is apparently the level of conspiracy theory you, and other reactionaries, are attempting to grasp at.
So let's go back to the contents, and if the source offends you, we can talk about your offense after that.
Do you even know what the word ”reactionary” means?
You're the only one here who's posting state propaganda and expecting people to treat it as genuine, so apparently you think US state media is somehow exceptional. And not even just state media, CIA-funded media.
https://www.ned.org/2018-democracy-award/2018-democracy-award-honoree-citizens-alliance-for-north-korean-human-rights-nkhr/
you realize that second link is from an article funded by the fucking NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
you literally referenced the CIA front for false flag operations and fake organizations
Im fucking giddy are you this stupid on accident or born with a badge?
THE FUCKING NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
eheheheheheheheeeeeeeeeee oh my god this is so fuckin easy
You remind me of the Nazi who skims articles looking for a Jewish sounding name so they can dismiss it outright. Do you have any contention with the content of the article, or is ad hominem really the best thing you can come up with?
Rightful criticism of a known CIA front org is the same thing as Nazi persecution of Jewish people is one hell of a take
Seriously, get a fuckin grip
Both you and the Nazi will point to any name they can associate with the source of a document, and use it to claim it should not be taken seriously. The only difference is that they call it removed globalism, and you call it bourgeois westerners.
Are you denying the existence of the 10 principles? If you are not, are you complaining about the translation?
Yeah that’s kinda the fundamental crux of the inherent difference between those groups you dumb fuck lmao, do you even read what you're typing
"Checking sources is Nazism actually" lmao you clueless child, get a grip and stay in school
Do you believe the 10 principles are real, fash?
Cite them, correctly
Cite what?
Give a real source on where its from, without using a CIA org
You are being as reasonable as a Nazi asking me to provide evidence of the Holocaust without citing a Jewish group
But, like, the CIA is not a persecuted ethnic group
We need to address the prejudice against people who work for the CIA sweety insert lib emote (I'm on my phone so can't rn)
and there it is again, the cowardice
Yes, I am.
Also yes.
So I tried to find a different translation. I spent about 10 minutes on google looking for a different translation or at the very least more context about these alleged "10 principles". It seems like there is only one translation in existence, which I find to be very odd. The text as you've presented it is not long nor particularly difficult, so it shouldn't be difficult to translate. I would assume, then, that more than one person would have produced a translation and posted it to the internet, at least if the original korean text were widely available. And if these "10 principles" were official dprk policy, surely the korean text would be easily found.
So why can I only find one translation? Maybe you can help me out here. Can you find another translation for me please? I'll also accept the original text in korean if that's easier.
Hey @anarchost@lemm.ee, let's keep the conversation public, buddy. I've copied your dm to me below:
Just give me the original text in korean or a different translation of them. Please?
Two more dm's from this creep:
I'm so honored to have been among the group of people who got asked that shitty gotcha about Hitler.
Anyway, don't bother talking to this idiot! They're not worth the effort.
oh my god is the whole thing not even real?
and keep posting his dms, he's been doing it instead of engaging with the post.
and welcome to the "apparently a nazi for questioning the CIA" club
If your source is funded by the CIA i don't care
and you're a braindead bitch if you think you can just compare everyone to nazis without sounding like a toddler
I know you don't care. You are not a leftist, after all, which is very obvious when comparing the way you dismiss sources with identical reasoning as Nazis, and refuse to participate in the conversation.
Your belief in Horseshoe theory is only something a stupid ass liberal could. You aren't anything but a brainless libshit. Get yourself a single original thought and not one funded by the CIA, then I'll deign to give two shits about anything you say.
Horseshoe theory would imply you are a leftist.
You aren't.
I would love it if you adopted left-wing beliefs, rather than campism, and I would love it if you stopped denying the anti-LGBT agendas of the countries you have been taught to support. I hope you break out of the cult, though!
"youre a right winger because i said so" Okay buddy, you're such a good kid, now go play with your friends.
Oh baby you've been only proporting State department bull and the literal CIA, you seem to be fully incapable of research!
I hope you break out of your programming, liberal! I'm right here for when you apologize for your US party line opinions.
Nazis and pro Israel reactionaries say the exact same thing using the exact same logic as you. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
What actual left-wing ideals do you support, or is it just all labels with you?
Nazis and pro Israel reactionaries don't criticize the CIA and its front orgs, you're literally a dumb fuck who doesn't know how to differentiate between disparate ideologies
Where the fuck do you get off accusing others of being Nazis while you defend one of the primary funders of international neo-nazism, post hog you worm
Are you kidding? Nazis love criticizing the CIA and everything they consider too globalist.
CIA members have been and are proponents of Nazism you dumb fuck, you think the incoherent babble of some random skinhead somewhere invalidates the documented history of CIA collusion and funding of neo-Nazis orgs from Ukraine, Germany, Belgium, to the United States?
I mean of course you do because you're a pathetic troll who lacks the proper historical knowledge to successfully troll an instance like this, so you throw shit at the wall hoping beyond hope for something to stick, word of advice you should've pretended to be a trot
Good point. I won't take your babbling seriously anymore
Your definition of arguing is citing the CIA and calling all your critics nazis
the context what matters, not the argument. I'd like to point out that casting all your enemies as 'nazis' doesn't really paint you in a good light either. I understand you're going for shock value, but I don't think you know I just don't care due to how stupid it is.
I'd like to list them, but then you'd go on some tirade to derail the convo, so im not going to give them to you.
Oh, you care about not derailing the conversation? Great, then read the document that triggers you, tell me whether it is right or wrong. We can go from there.
Hold back all your complaints about how the documents are made by too many Jews, or too many globalists, or whatever your buzzword is this week, and we can get to those after we're done with that. Deal?
No, the sources are not viable whatsoever, not even primary sources, but CIA front orgs, and one that has no sources cited.
Give me a Korean source, preferably not government, right wing, or the CIA
babe again 👏 come👏 up 👏 with👏 some👏thing 👏 new👏
"If you don't like my sources you are basically a genocidal, jew-hating nazi" is not good faith either. Get your head out of your ass
Renounce your CIA citation and I'll deign to care about your shitty opinions.
The source is Korean.
If you had paused long enough to stop vomiting Nazi level ideology, you might have noticed that
Right-wing Korean tabloid press concerning North Korea has been debunked by independent South Korean media orgs for decades, to the point it's become a meme in South Korea
You don't know what NED is or the history of American funded right-wing media in South Korea, you're like a Qanon supporter accusing people of being pedo supporters because they don't believe nonsense made up by right-wing conspiracy rags, which YOU are also using as sources lmao
Again, get a grip and learn some media literacy shitlib
That sounds fascinating. Please post multiple links to the South Korean Independent organizations that have debunked them.
As a side note, I take it you personally condemn the Grayzone, all CCP funded media, all Vietnamese state funded media, all Russian state funded media, all Syrian state funded media, etc?
You ever heard of this concept called 'critical analysis' or do you just go around in life believing everything you read and excommunicating everything that upsets like some sophist pope
Also you wormlike hypocrite, when are you gonna condemn the sources you just used? You've been informed of their origin and yet not a word of condemnation for one of the most horrifically fascistic organizations in human history
Uses fash sources, then accuses other people of being fash, you learn that trick on pol you dumb fuck?
Show me your critical analysis in action. Critically analyze the content
Sorrrry, I don't teach people who peddle fash sources :)
But I can show you this proof
spoiler
spoiler
Piggy PROOF Balls :kelly:
I condemn the CIA. Do you condemn all Russian, CCP, and Vietnamese state media equally?
No you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be using their sources you dumb fuck
How many governments has Russian, CCP, and Vietnamese state media helped overthrown? Again 'critical analysis' shitlib, it's a wondrous concept
Inb4 muh russiagate gets mentioned.
Why can't you condemn state propaganda?
Bro you got long covid, go to the doctor
Whatever you say fash
Says the CIA stooge, keep misusing terms you heard on pol dipshit
Why can you only cite US state propaganda
You don't have any problem with state propaganda.
1, that was a deflection
2, I have a problem with CIA propaganda, since they are an organization hell bent on lying about us and killing every single red in existence to further the interests of American Capital
babe
korean dont mean shit
D-
Do you not know that SKorea is a US puppet? Do you actually believe it is a sovereign nation with no US control?
The USA has direct control of the SKorean military during wartime, how can you be sovereign when you can't even control your own army.
And you don't seem to know basic cold war history if you don't know what the NED is.
You know, if you used your own logic, you wouldn't believe Hitler ordered the Holocaust.
So... With that in mind, where do you stand on that?
You keep saying this and if you knew anything about Holocaust historiography and were speaking in good faith, it would be a really weird thing to say.
https://www.holocaustcentre.org.nz/uploads/1/1/5/2/115245341/interpretations-of-the-holocaust.pdf
Hitler was obviously an enthusiastic facilitator of the Holocaust, but to say that he "ordered" is a really fraught claim. It's not like gas chambers or even death camps were his idea, or only put to use killing Jewish people after he approved of them. To my knowledge, he did order the removal of Jewish people from all the society controlled by Nazis and did seek for them to be eradicated, but when you say "ordered the Holocaust" it makes it sound like it was much more centrally-organized than it was. The fascist higher-ups on a municipal level understood it was part of their job to "purge" the Jewish population, but how they were to go about it often was not handed down to them, so they devised their own methods (and, if they reported success, their method was sometimes applied elsewhere). Whether what Hitler did say amounts to "ordering the Holocaust" vs the Holocaust being one of several possible outcomes that would have fallen within his orders is a matter of debate (to be clear, he did order genocide of Jews in a broader sense, but the Holocaust was not only work camps, which still would have been genocide due to many factors, and should not be understood as such).
I don't know, it's just weird, you are very self-serious about history while demonstrating confident ignorance.
No, there are literal documents from the reich that he did so, as well as soviet and american ones. It also lines up perfectly with the ideology of hitler and what he said he was going to do.
How long has it been since you've talked to another human being?
That doesn't even make sense with context, what the fuck are you talking about.
Your logic dictates that American documents must be discarded because they are Western chauvinist. Because the Soviet Union was collaborating with America, they must also be discarded. So we are left with the Nazi documents of which there are none.
So are you telling me that you believe Hitler never ordered the Holocaust, or are you about to revise the way you believe things?
what the
whaaaa
are you saying
Are you saying that the Soviets are PUPPETS OF THE USA?!
Dronie you've made a leap large enough to cross the space between the earth and moon.
God I can't take you seriously.
Renounce the CIA citation and then I'll care
I'm sorry, did you ever substantiate your moon logic that North Korea is a permanent puppet of the United States?
How in the fucking hell is the DPRK a US puppet?
What the fuck are you saying? There are a ton of Nazi documents that were used to prove a great deal about the Holocaust. There were cases of extensive destruction of documents, but they didn't do that everywhere.
cum
I think this says very little of substance besides "our Great Leader is cool, Juche is cool, we must protect the revolution". Oh, and supporting central organization. What do you think it says?
5 is the only one that looks iffy to me. I guess you could say 3 too, but honestly they are a little redundant.
Can you provide a source for this so-called Supreme People's Assembly being democratically elected?
Who is allowed to be elected? Can the ruling party remove people from the ballot, ensuring their own elites remain in power forever?
And while you're taking questions, is there seriously a North Korean "Socialist Patriotic Youth League"?
have you ever actually studied the DPRK government, or did you watch a youtube and rely on pop culture politics?
They cannot remove people from the ballot
youth leagues are awesome
Sources please!
You've run away from me, come back here
Post evidence, please!
no I don't think I'll try anymore
I ended my effortposting when I found out you cited the CIA, just find another source just fucking google it, how are you this incapable
Promise?
not anymore, you dug in your heels on this matter a while ago when you could have just not called people nazis for debunking your source
Provide your sources.
provide your sources for your original counterargument
also
denounce your CIA citation, then we'll talk