Let's back up to square one. Is it wrong to perform sex acts on a non-human animal? If so, why? You're talking too abstractly so I'd really like to just get something concrete to discuss with.
i don't think that's square one, i think square one is further back.
Is a doctor (or medical technician or whatever job title idc) doing the last step of IVF performing a sex act on or with the patient? the adult patient consents of course, but i don't think anyone thinks a doctor with a "turkey baster" is doing a sex act. I would say "preforming sex acts on..." isn't applicable to animal husbandry in the way i understand all those words.
i'm not trying to debate bro here, it's just not possible to have a conversation if we think words mean different things... which gets back to my previous point about vegans using a wider "bestiality" than the rest of us, apparently including Kinsey.
And yet instead of answering the question you went off on a tangent about IVF.
I didn't ask you your definition of sex act or say anything about doctors or animal husbandry. The question is VERY simple. Is it, or is it not, wrong to perform sex acts on a non-human animal?
I didn't ask you your definition of sex act or say anything about doctors or animal husbandry. The question is VERY simple. Is it, or is it not, wrong to perform sex acts on a non-human animal?
there's no point in my answering your question if we don't agree what counts as a sex act. we've already established that vegans have a broader meaning of bestiality than the rest of us so now we need to be careful about shit like whether a grill is a barbecue or a broiler.
I say "no" then you say artificial insemination is a sex act.
I say "no" then you say artificial insemination is a sex act.
See, this is the debate bro thing I'm talking about. You're trying to "win" the argument by not "falling for my trap." But there's no trap. You're completely off the mark about where I was going with this, and you'll never find out because you're scared of falling for it. Because to you, "winning" the debate is way more important than actually having a discussion. That's why you were speaking in abstracts like I pointed out when I first replied to you, because if you say anything concrete then there's a possibility for people to question your logic and pose hard questions that you aren't sure how to answer.
Not sure why I'm jumping in here, but you are being completely incoherent. You're saying people are saying things when they have said nothing of the kind. You are making weird moralistic arguments that not only have no material basis but make no sense.
I'm not the person you were responding to, but ok, let's do as you say, do the same with incest. Incest is not wrong because it is "against nature" (what does that even mean? Incest happens as part of the natural world and it is well-documented in humans as well as other species, even humans' closest genetic relatives). Incest is only wrong because of the harm it does to people being sexually exploited due to an almost inevitable power dynamic or because of the harm it does via potential genetic defects if there are offspring. It is not wrong because it seems "ew gross, sex with family yuck!"
Its wrong because you are having sexual intercourse with an animal, which is something against nature and just wrong in literally every way.
So you're really doing the tautology that "it's wrong because it's just wrong" argument? What is "nature" and how is this "against it"? "Ew, gross, that's just wrong!" may be a valid reaction but it's not engaging the question of why, and it's not addressing any of the arguments that have been made, but it's like you keep pretending that you are engaging the question and addressing what's been said. It's not wrong to have a gut reaction and your gut reaction may not even be wrong, but don't pretend that the problem is other user's "ideological dung" or some batshit reasoning on their part.
Its one of the true taboos of humanity, you don't do it.
People do do it, once again, it's been documented in countless human societies. If it IS wrong (and I agree that it is wrong) it is wrong for the same reasons that artificial insemination of animals to produce more of them as food for humans is also wrong. The only way this would not be the case is by vague, meaningless phrases like "against nature" and "just wrong." Artificial insemination, (which is forced pregnancy and (cw) the r-word) is much more "against nature" than members of different species having sex with each other, which once again, happens quite a bit in nonhuman animals and there is something like 3% and 8% of women and men, respectively, who have had sexual interaction with animals, including penetrative sex.
I swear I thought there were people with more than just vibes based politics here, but this shows that I will have to block a few fools in order to experience the site without crawling through ideological dung.
You are the one going off vibes-based reasoning here, which has been made very clear repeatedly by almost everyone who has responded to you. Block away, I have to do the same at times. But you're not doing so because the people you're blocking have bad arguments or are "vibes-based" or are even ideological (at least beyond the way that everything is ideological). You're doing so because their valid arguments are putting into question the things you have always casually accepted as normal and ok.
As for crawling through ideological dung, everyone needs to be extra careful when they think they smell other's. Some people don't recognize when they're just actually just smelling their own.
incest is bad and wrong because of power dynamics and grooming done to people. reproductive incest is also bad because of the genetics stuff but incest taboo predates that and historical people had a bunch of weird ideas about bloodlines which gave us the hapsburg chin.
the vibe against incest comes from the westermarck effect and social norms, but e.g. first cousin pairings are iirc genetically safe if you don't do several generations of them and such marriages are legal in a lot of places.
additionally, once in a while siblings separated at birth accidentally end up in incestuous relationships without knowing. there was a case in germany maybe 10-15 years ago and i've forgotten most of the details but i think they got sterilized after finding out and were allowed to stay together since there was no power imbalance and no risk of genetic whatever.
No its wrong because it is morally and completely wrong, with various mental and physically ill issues stemming from it.
Its wrong because you are having sexual intercourse with an animal, which is something against nature and just wrong in literally every way.
A vegan can easily give a good explanation as to why it's wrong: because an animal cannot give informed consent, gains no benefit from it, and may very well be harmed by it. Carnists, of course, fundamentally do not care about the wellbeing of animals or what they consent to (animals don't consent to being hacked apart and they definitely don't benefit from it), so all they can do is flail their arms and say "it's wrong because it's wrong."
You are flailing and making a fool of yourself because you cannot reconcile your opposition to bestiality with your support for funneling animals into industrial killing chambers.
You answered a question I didn't ask you, and your answer was utterly incoherent. Not only was I not interested in having this discussion with you (I don't know you, your stance, or the meaning of anything you've ever said) but I don't understand your answer even if I was. There are so many things incoherent about your response that it would be difficult for me to even break them all down. That's why I've issued a blanket "what the fuck" and waited for you to say something that makes sense.
I really don't think I'm interested. You're clearly operating on some number of dimensions that I don't have access to. I have some kind of "compatriot" somewhere that you're convinced I'm "feigning ignorance" of. I don't think you and I are operating on the same plane of existence.
![[CW: bestiality] Professional "moral philosopher" ponders whether it's OK to sexually assault animals, featuring AI art](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/f26b2dce-7254-4537-acd1-5de623b591e0.png){kind=link}
Let's back up to square one. Is it wrong to perform sex acts on a non-human animal? If so, why? You're talking too abstractly so I'd really like to just get something concrete to discuss with.
i don't think that's square one, i think square one is further back.
Is a doctor (or medical technician or whatever job title idc) doing the last step of IVF performing a sex act on or with the patient? the adult patient consents of course, but i don't think anyone thinks a doctor with a "turkey baster" is doing a sex act. I would say "preforming sex acts on..." isn't applicable to animal husbandry in the way i understand all those words.
i'm not trying to debate bro here, it's just not possible to have a conversation if we think words mean different things... which gets back to my previous point about vegans using a wider "bestiality" than the rest of us, apparently including Kinsey.
And yet instead of answering the question you went off on a tangent about IVF.
I didn't ask you your definition of sex act or say anything about doctors or animal husbandry. The question is VERY simple. Is it, or is it not, wrong to perform sex acts on a non-human animal?
there's no point in my answering your question if we don't agree what counts as a sex act. we've already established that vegans have a broader meaning of bestiality than the rest of us so now we need to be careful about shit like whether a grill is a barbecue or a broiler.
I say "no" then you say
artificial insemination is a sex act.
See, this is the debate bro thing I'm talking about. You're trying to "win" the argument by not "falling for my trap." But there's no trap. You're completely off the mark about where I was going with this, and you'll never find out because you're scared of falling for it. Because to you, "winning" the debate is way more important than actually having a discussion. That's why you were speaking in abstracts like I pointed out when I first replied to you, because if you say anything concrete then there's a possibility for people to question your logic and pose hard questions that you aren't sure how to answer.
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What? When did I do that? When did I even state any logic at all? I asked someone to explain their logic.
I didn't argue anything. I asked someone else to explain the reason that they are against that thing, so that I can better understand their position.
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Literally what the hell are you talking about
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is that why it's wrong? is it really?
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"against nature" and "just wrong" is not vibes based, got it
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Not sure why I'm jumping in here, but you are being completely incoherent. You're saying people are saying things when they have said nothing of the kind. You are making weird moralistic arguments that not only have no material basis but make no sense.
I'm not the person you were responding to, but ok, let's do as you say, do the same with incest. Incest is not wrong because it is "against nature" (what does that even mean? Incest happens as part of the natural world and it is well-documented in humans as well as other species, even humans' closest genetic relatives). Incest is only wrong because of the harm it does to people being sexually exploited due to an almost inevitable power dynamic or because of the harm it does via potential genetic defects if there are offspring. It is not wrong because it seems "ew gross, sex with family yuck!"
So you're really doing the tautology that "it's wrong because it's just wrong" argument? What is "nature" and how is this "against it"? "Ew, gross, that's just wrong!" may be a valid reaction but it's not engaging the question of why, and it's not addressing any of the arguments that have been made, but it's like you keep pretending that you are engaging the question and addressing what's been said. It's not wrong to have a gut reaction and your gut reaction may not even be wrong, but don't pretend that the problem is other user's "ideological dung" or some batshit reasoning on their part.
People do do it, once again, it's been documented in countless human societies. If it IS wrong (and I agree that it is wrong) it is wrong for the same reasons that artificial insemination of animals to produce more of them as food for humans is also wrong. The only way this would not be the case is by vague, meaningless phrases like "against nature" and "just wrong." Artificial insemination, (which is forced pregnancy and (cw) the r-word) is much more "against nature" than members of different species having sex with each other, which once again, happens quite a bit in nonhuman animals and there is something like 3% and 8% of women and men, respectively, who have had sexual interaction with animals, including penetrative sex.
You are the one going off vibes-based reasoning here, which has been made very clear repeatedly by almost everyone who has responded to you. Block away, I have to do the same at times. But you're not doing so because the people you're blocking have bad arguments or are "vibes-based" or are even ideological (at least beyond the way that everything is ideological). You're doing so because their valid arguments are putting into question the things you have always casually accepted as normal and ok.
As for crawling through ideological dung, everyone needs to be extra careful when they think they smell other's. Some people don't recognize when they're just actually just smelling their own.
incest is bad and wrong because of power dynamics and grooming done to people. reproductive incest is also bad because of the genetics stuff but incest taboo predates that and historical people had a bunch of weird ideas about bloodlines which gave us the hapsburg chin.
the vibe against incest comes from the westermarck effect and social norms, but e.g. first cousin pairings are iirc genetically safe if you don't do several generations of them and such marriages are legal in a lot of places.
additionally, once in a while siblings separated at birth accidentally end up in incestuous relationships without knowing. there was a case in germany maybe 10-15 years ago and i've forgotten most of the details but i think they got sterilized after finding out and were allowed to stay together since there was no power imbalance and no risk of genetic whatever.
A vegan can easily give a good explanation as to why it's wrong: because an animal cannot give informed consent, gains no benefit from it, and may very well be harmed by it. Carnists, of course, fundamentally do not care about the wellbeing of animals or what they consent to (animals don't consent to being hacked apart and they definitely don't benefit from it), so all they can do is flail their arms and say "it's wrong because it's wrong."
You are flailing and making a fool of yourself because you cannot reconcile your opposition to bestiality with your support for funneling animals into industrial killing chambers.
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Who is my compatriot????
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I'm not mocking anything, I'm asking you to explain what this word salad you're spewing means
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You answered a question I didn't ask you, and your answer was utterly incoherent. Not only was I not interested in having this discussion with you (I don't know you, your stance, or the meaning of anything you've ever said) but I don't understand your answer even if I was. There are so many things incoherent about your response that it would be difficult for me to even break them all down. That's why I've issued a blanket "what the fuck" and waited for you to say something that makes sense.
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I really don't think I'm interested. You're clearly operating on some number of dimensions that I don't have access to. I have some kind of "compatriot" somewhere that you're convinced I'm "feigning ignorance" of. I don't think you and I are operating on the same plane of existence.
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Then why are you the one with mod removed comments and the one getting upvote ratioed? @booty is actually making sense.