He died after his conviction. American coroners found no evidence that he was killed or tortured. The settler probably never worked a real day in his life.
The DPRK is quite literally at war with the US, which is actively trying to turn it into another Libya. The state can chill out and become Belgium when they don't have bi-annual war games planning an invasion against their country.
I mean this with no disrespect, but if you come from the West, your police serve capital. There's don't. I get that you're used your police serving the real estate industry and trying to fill quotas for drug crimes, and this is what you see every day.
If a cracker from the Hitler country was fucking around and not following the standards by which a guest in the country is expected to do then it's his fault. I get that to him from his perspective it would've seemed like such a nothingburger, and that we as members of the imperial core may sympathise with him at first, but he broke into a military section of the extravagant hotel he was staying at in order to steal this poster. It's sad that he passed during due to unrelated complications, but if he wanted to not be arrested he shouldn't have broken into the military wing of a country his homeland has been nothing but hitlerite towards.
And I mean unrelated, his medical complications were not due to his treatment (perhaps stress, to be fair) and the medical treatment I've read had been some of the best available to the DPRK despite embargo due to the ultimately political nature of his situation. Don't cry too hard though, US Congress has authorized that his parents are entitled to roughly 500 million dollars worth of the DPRK's economy if it ever "liberalizes".
The relevant question isn't "did he break the law", but "did NK mistreat him, or neglect him in custody, causing his illness"? I haven't seen any evidence they caused his illness through mistreatment, and it'd be pretty much impossible to prove so long after the fact if they did, unless said mistreatment involved broken bones or something. But what is much more believable is him being assaulted, perhaps strangled, by other prisoners upon incarceration, which would explain the "lack of oxygen to the brain" that the coroners report mentioned.
The DPRK authorities have some responsibility, if they are going to imprison him, to make sure that doesn't happen, IMO. It would fall under neglect. I mean either way he's no martyr, I certainly don't condemn the DPRK for it, but I think it's fair to say they could have handled it better. If this were one case out of dozens, or hundreds, of americans getting arrested in the DPRK, and one guy happens to get sick and go into a coma in custody, I'd be happy to accept it was coincidence or just stress, but it's not a common occurrence for an american to go to prison there, and americans are (rightly) hated there, so it's sorta hard to accept a healthy US college student just abruptly went into a vegetative coma with no acute cause besides stress when there are so many other possibilities that seem much more likely and simple.
You are correct, so the medical information gathered on him was from when he was still alive plus superficial examinations (turns out he had a scar on his foot and his teeth were crooked)
Otto Warmbier’s family asked Dr. Lakshmi Sammarco, a neuroradiologist and the elected coroner, not to perform a complete autopsy, but rather merely to conduct an external inspection of the body [3,16-18]. The family did not offer a reason for their objection [19,20].
A guy from a country that's bombed and killed 20% of their civilians, used biological weapons against them, and regularly sabotages them, stole something to bring it back to his fraternity. It's literally on video. I don't think he deserved 15 years of hard labour, but I don't blame the Koreans for suspecting that it wasn't yet another US military project. The US would happily turn the DPRK into Syria. As Stephen Gowans has said, the country is constantly on high alert from all the random bomber missions and aircraft fleets that Amerika threatens with the explicit intent of destabilising and draining the DPRK.
The reason was that he was acting like a suspicious cracker from a country that sends almost nothing but suspicious crackers there. 95% of Americans who go to the DPRK are either feds or fed associated journalists who want to smear the place. So this suspicious cracker breaks into a military section of a hotel, is told to go back to his room, does so but then sneaks back to the military wing to do something fucky with a poster.
They were really harsh on him, but acting like a spy while being the exact type of person who would be sent to the DPRK as a spy isn't nothing. The guy was an idiot.
You clearly haven't retained anything about the case. As you can even see from the picture, he was not beaten to a coma in his arrest, and later on even gave testimony (not that the testimony was particularly valuable) that was video recorded and broadcast on TV. He fell into a coma after that point. There is zero evidence that his comatose state was related to police brutality, with even his own parents, with full access to his medical records from his vegetative return on, had nothing to cite proving the coma was induced by torture except him having a scar on his foot that they didn't know about and some crooked teeth. No evidence of fractures, no bruising, no dislocations, no chipped teeth, no signs of concussion, nothing.
He most likely contracted botulism, which is more prevalent in the DPRK due to its poverty, or a similar disease while in custody. Because the DPRK had a limited ability to identify the disease and to treat it, it was not able to save him before he became vegetative.
Nowhere in this story is there room for "pigs did a guy to death". The DPRK handling of some jackass US dude flagrantly breaking their laws and trespassing in a military space was humane by all available evidence.
Would you also like to know if I would change my view if they domed him because they saw his last name and assumed he was Jewish? Imagining counterfactuals is useless when you are refusing to engage with reality.
No they detained him because he was acting sketchy as hell stealing shit and acting like a spy. Then he had a medical issue while incarcerated, went into a coma and there’s no evidence of DPRK doing anything to him.
His body had no bedsores on it and no evidence of torture. They were turning him multiple times a day to prevent bed sores, just like medical professionals are supposed to
Looks like he got beat up by the cops after he caused a disturbance. Then died of complications. Not great. Maybe if we let the dprk have proper medical supplies that wouldn't have happened
Not a good take. We absolutely do need to justify whatever degree of violence we think it will take to replace capitalism -- how else are we supposed to get popular support for it? Even the "we shall not make excuses for the terror" quote immediately excuses the terror by pointing out how it's a response to the violence of "the royal terrorists." The "there were two reigns of terror" quote does the same. Justifying violence also clarifies which types of violence are necessary and which are excessive, which is another key part of building and keeping popular support (see Mao separating the PLA from the warlords by mandating that they pay for supplies from peasants rather than just stealing them, see the Red Army's punishment of sexual violence during WWII).
And that's in a revolutionary context. In a post-revoutionary AES state there's even more rationale to justify whatever violence we think is necessary to maintain that state, as the threats it faces are less imminent and it has more resources and time.
The American coroner who did the autopsy identified no evidence that he was physically harmed by anyone in any way. Why exactly do you think the American coroner would lie to protect North Korean prison guards from Americans' disapproval?
they killed him because of a poster?
He died after his conviction. American coroners found no evidence that he was killed or tortured. The settler probably never worked a real day in his life.
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The DPRK bravely defends itself daily from Amerikan fuckery.
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The DPRK is quite literally at war with the US, which is actively trying to turn it into another Libya. The state can chill out and become Belgium when they don't have bi-annual war games planning an invasion against their country.
I mean this with no disrespect, but if you come from the West, your police serve capital. There's don't. I get that you're used your police serving the real estate industry and trying to fill quotas for drug crimes, and this is what you see every day.
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If a cracker from the Hitler country was fucking around and not following the standards by which a guest in the country is expected to do then it's his fault. I get that to him from his perspective it would've seemed like such a nothingburger, and that we as members of the imperial core may sympathise with him at first, but he broke into a military section of the extravagant hotel he was staying at in order to steal this poster. It's sad that he passed during due to unrelated complications, but if he wanted to not be arrested he shouldn't have broken into the military wing of a country his homeland has been nothing but hitlerite towards.
And I mean unrelated, his medical complications were not due to his treatment (perhaps stress, to be fair) and the medical treatment I've read had been some of the best available to the DPRK despite embargo due to the ultimately political nature of his situation. Don't cry too hard though, US Congress has authorized that his parents are entitled to roughly 500 million dollars worth of the DPRK's economy if it ever "liberalizes".
I forgot this. Thank you.
The relevant question isn't "did he break the law", but "did NK mistreat him, or neglect him in custody, causing his illness"? I haven't seen any evidence they caused his illness through mistreatment, and it'd be pretty much impossible to prove so long after the fact if they did, unless said mistreatment involved broken bones or something. But what is much more believable is him being assaulted, perhaps strangled, by other prisoners upon incarceration, which would explain the "lack of oxygen to the brain" that the coroners report mentioned.
The DPRK authorities have some responsibility, if they are going to imprison him, to make sure that doesn't happen, IMO. It would fall under neglect. I mean either way he's no martyr, I certainly don't condemn the DPRK for it, but I think it's fair to say they could have handled it better. If this were one case out of dozens, or hundreds, of americans getting arrested in the DPRK, and one guy happens to get sick and go into a coma in custody, I'd be happy to accept it was coincidence or just stress, but it's not a common occurrence for an american to go to prison there, and americans are (rightly) hated there, so it's sorta hard to accept a healthy US college student just abruptly went into a vegetative coma with no acute cause besides stress when there are so many other possibilities that seem much more likely and simple.
Didn't the parents agree not to do an autopsy on him? I may be misremembering
You are correct, so the medical information gathered on him was from when he was still alive plus superficial examinations (turns out he had a scar on his foot and his teeth were crooked)
idk https://www.forensicscijournal.com/articles/jfsr-aid1012.php
Thank you for the source, comrade
A guy from a country that's bombed and killed 20% of their civilians, used biological weapons against them, and regularly sabotages them, stole something to bring it back to his fraternity. It's literally on video. I don't think he deserved 15 years of hard labour, but I don't blame the Koreans for suspecting that it wasn't yet another US military project. The US would happily turn the DPRK into Syria. As Stephen Gowans has said, the country is constantly on high alert from all the random bomber missions and aircraft fleets that Amerika threatens with the explicit intent of destabilising and draining the DPRK.
The reason was that he was acting like a suspicious cracker from a country that sends almost nothing but suspicious crackers there. 95% of Americans who go to the DPRK are either feds or fed associated journalists who want to smear the place. So this suspicious cracker breaks into a military section of a hotel, is told to go back to his room, does so but then sneaks back to the military wing to do something fucky with a poster.
They were really harsh on him, but acting like a spy while being the exact type of person who would be sent to the DPRK as a spy isn't nothing. The guy was an idiot.
when taken as a religious mantra, is worse than useless
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You clearly haven't retained anything about the case. As you can even see from the picture, he was not beaten to a coma in his arrest, and later on even gave testimony (not that the testimony was particularly valuable) that was video recorded and broadcast on TV. He fell into a coma after that point. There is zero evidence that his comatose state was related to police brutality, with even his own parents, with full access to his medical records from his vegetative return on, had nothing to cite proving the coma was induced by torture except him having a scar on his foot that they didn't know about and some crooked teeth. No evidence of fractures, no bruising, no dislocations, no chipped teeth, no signs of concussion, nothing.
He most likely contracted botulism, which is more prevalent in the DPRK due to its poverty, or a similar disease while in custody. Because the DPRK had a limited ability to identify the disease and to treat it, it was not able to save him before he became vegetative.
Nowhere in this story is there room for "pigs did a guy to death". The DPRK handling of some jackass US dude flagrantly breaking their laws and trespassing in a military space was humane by all available evidence.
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Would you also like to know if I would change my view if they domed him because they saw his last name and assumed he was Jewish? Imagining counterfactuals is useless when you are refusing to engage with reality.
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No they detained him because he was acting sketchy as hell stealing shit and acting like a spy. Then he had a medical issue while incarcerated, went into a coma and there’s no evidence of DPRK doing anything to him.
He seems to have gotten botulism and then his parents pulled the plug on him after his vegetative body was returned
His body had no bedsores on it and no evidence of torture. They were turning him multiple times a day to prevent bed sores, just like medical professionals are supposed to
The torture accusations are completely unfounded.
Looks like he got beat up by the cops after he caused a disturbance. Then died of complications. Not great. Maybe if we let the dprk have proper medical supplies that wouldn't have happened
No evidence of any beatings or torture whatsoever
No, but like. A hand full of scared shitless dprk cops and a corn fed good ol boy causing a ruckus? A couple elbows are easily forgivable.
We don’t got to justify our violence
Not a good take. We absolutely do need to justify whatever degree of violence we think it will take to replace capitalism -- how else are we supposed to get popular support for it? Even the "we shall not make excuses for the terror" quote immediately excuses the terror by pointing out how it's a response to the violence of "the royal terrorists." The "there were two reigns of terror" quote does the same. Justifying violence also clarifies which types of violence are necessary and which are excessive, which is another key part of building and keeping popular support (see Mao separating the PLA from the warlords by mandating that they pay for supplies from peasants rather than just stealing them, see the Red Army's punishment of sexual violence during WWII).
And that's in a revolutionary context. In a post-revoutionary AES state there's even more rationale to justify whatever violence we think is necessary to maintain that state, as the threats it faces are less imminent and it has more resources and time.
That is a good point
The American coroner who did the autopsy identified no evidence that he was physically harmed by anyone in any way. Why exactly do you think the American coroner would lie to protect North Korean prison guards from Americans' disapproval?