This is your take? I mean, the insider trading stuff is pretty heavy evidence that people knew ahead of time. People with money and resources to act on this foreknowledge. And the case that we are presented with by the commission is, well, a story of people close to important state actors conspiring to commit the crime. The state dept story is a conspiracy theory, even if truncated, obfuscated, covered-up, that is still what they presented us with. Oh yeah, and that many in the intelligence community knew of the attackers presence in the US, others knowing of an impending attack, and the attackers being closely related to Saudi intelligence, ya know, the intelligence service buttresses with US technology and training in close partnership. But yeah, just like “UFO’s”.
Some folks are presented with facts which should cause alarm and suspicion but instead reel and dismiss, and I can only point to a lack of intellectual curiosity, ideology, or a motivated viewpoint based on a perceived in-group’s general opinion which steers then into taking the state department position, and that of the Atlantic Monthly. “Actually it’s all chaos and accident, and our pattern seeking brains project meaning onto events which are random.” I’m nit saying that’s your position, but it is a common refrain to dismiss real conspiracies, and reminds me of Parenti’s take on historians who talk about “the reluctant US empire who rose to the occasion at a critical juncture to bumble its way into global dominance”. Like, no calculation or conspiring required.
As if these shit hole leaders are braying at every opportunity to make money dropping bombs. Just god smiling on them I guess. Nothing to see here.
Ey bro I've been around the whole time. I know all this shit. I'm not impressed. "Take your lack of intellectual curiosity" somewhere else. 9/11 was blowback for America's adventures in the Middle East and Afghanistan. Bunch of guys flew planes in to buildings. No one in the alphabet soup put it together because 1.) al-Qaeda was trying to blow up the WTC all the time. 9/11 was, what, their second? Third attempt? 2.) the US Intelligence agencies aren't magical all knowing wizards and no one group had all the pieces needed to figure all of this out and 3.) There's like 500 conspiracies related to 9/11, but "9/11 was a false flag" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams" is just silly bullshit. US intelligence letting Saudi intelligence play games with them? Sure. USAPATRIOT being pre-written and just waiting for the inevitable excuse because there was always going to be some excuse, because the US pisses off so many people? Sure. The US intel agencies had all the information they needed but didn't put the pieces together? Sure. US Intel being too arrogant to understand what their catspaws are up to? Sure.
There were all kinds of conspiracies going on. Boring, banal conspiracies that the US gets up to all the time. Not cool guy stuff like the US, idk what the contemporary bs even is, remote controlling the planes? the planes were holograms? The pentagon wasn't actually hit? I have no idea, because I stopped caring literally a decade ago.
Ok, dismiss everything. My point is that there is a ton of data points which should raise eyebrows of researchers, and to dismiss with such certitude in the face of unanswered/unanswerable questions is just as unreasonable as being credulous with every conspiracy theory posited. Your conflation of people troubled by these data points and questions with the fringest of conspiracy theorists reeks of unmerited condescension. A more reasonable position would be to state your personal feeling on the matter but acknowledge that there are unknowns and unknowables and certain evidence that make any sort of confidence one way or another impossible at this point in time. Instead it’s “this is just UFO shit” and I was surprised this is your take.
Dismiss what, exactly? OP is alleging that there's something unusual about recovering documents from the crash sites. There isn't. There's no question to ask here because there's no reason to think that recovered passports are evidence of something unusual.
What am I dismissing? The US had all the evidence and didn't put it together because of inter-service rivalries, compartmentalization, and it being the 90s when we were still banging rocks together to make fire? Bush was in tight with the Saudi's and the bin Ladens? al-Qaeda was mostly an invention of the US intelligence services, the US's perception of a clandestine military organization that formed during the Soviet-Afghan war with CIA assistance? al-Qaeda tried to blow up the WTC all the time, it was like their favorite hobby. Where is the new information? What's the truth that's being hidden? The US did it? it was a false flag? What is there to investigate or reveal?
Can we dial this back a little, because I respect the posting I’ve seen from you over the years and internet debating stresses me out. I think I may have used a couple loaded phrases to poke a little, and I would like to clarify where I have contributed to a misunderstanding.
I appreciated the first part of your response where you linked to information about the things that were found at crash sites. I found this as cogent reasoning and respectful practice, as I am not swayed by the passports, not to mention jet fuel etc.
I shouldn’t have said “dismiss everything” and I should have made clear that I took umbrage with what I interpreted as equivocation between legitimate paths of inquiry and irresponsible and wild conspiratorial speculation (UFO shit, as I put it). To me, you were saying all 9/11 questioning contra the official narrative is conspiracy theory. This irked me ngl.
When I said dismiss everythin in the fillowing response, I was alluding to you presenting a cohesive narrative with facts which didn’t really address some if the points my first response, in particular the point about insider trading. None of the facts I pointed out and none of the facts you pointed out are immiscible, and could be explained away under the paradigm of “the official narrative”. Like who knows what networks could’ve tipped off investors. I can accept that.
But I thank you for pointing out long standing relationships between Saudi’s and the Bush family, both in official state operations and myriad business ventures. Poppy and a select group of his closest pals in US intelligence and otherwise were absolutely instrumental and intimately involved in modernizing Saudi intelligence, and he was personally involved in seeing Saudi funds reintegrated into US investments. All of the networks that surround these people and their activities are characterized by subterfuge, lies, in dealing, fucking holes in the ground for energy, fraudulent investment schemes, and pursuing war for profit. Even if all evidence pointed to the straight forward narrative, one should be chilled with how much these folks directly benefitted from the expansion of the military budget and intensification of secrecy and surveillance at scale in the aftermath. We saw a 2 trillion dollar transfer of public wealth to the defense industry in as many decades, to give a sense of the incentive structure their cohort had to pursue such an open ended war in such a geopolitically important region. This does not include the private wealth pursued by like, every single general and JCoS asshole after their “service” to use soviet maps to strip mine the regions that had decimated and conquered for empire.
We could go on trading details toward this or that end, but to me the previous paragraph is sorta my reasoning as to why the official narrative should be critically evaluated, and where it is weak or points to troubling and unanswered lines of inquiry, well all the more reason to press. It is strange that these calculating and conspiring fucks were able to use their networks and conspiring to personally enrich themselves and pals over decades in adjacent and directly related industries, but this 2 trillion dollar gift from god required none of that. Maybe I am naive or somehow uncritical for this still being unsettling to me, and enough for me to keep an open mind to counter narratives.
It is pretty uncontroversial to say that people in a position to take advantage of this event for personal, political, and imperial aims did so the umpth degree. I think where we might disagree is whether it is necessary to pursue the question of “were these actors, who may have been in a position to tip the scales in favor of this event, act to or fail to act so as to contribute to this eventuality” as a legitimate line of inquiry, or if the facts as presented obviate the need to do so.
You’re cool and funny and I respect your posting. I don’t post much, and I lack the wherewithal to engage most the time. I hope this made any sense and that my good faith and lack of malice come through in the tone of this message.
My apologies. I allowed twenty years of... idk, dealing with "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" to color my perceptions of this discussion and I got really angry. That was not appropriate.
There is a lot of unknown and unknowable stuff but it all seems like bullshit to me. Like you said, that position is reasonable. I'm being the reasonable person here.
Word. That’s fair. I was just put off by what I interpreted as an unfair equivocation between attempting to apply material analysis to major historical events and undisciplined conspiratorial waxing. Having spent ungodly hours attempting to form a cohesive thought on the matter, even the most conservative interpretation of evidence leaves me with nothing like the confidence on display in advocating on behalf of “the official narrative”. “I think it’s bullshit but there is merit in pursuing questions with a critical disposition” seems way more honest and comradely a response than “even if there is a ton of contravening evidence problemetizing the official narrative, it is all bullshit and I am correct”. So thank you for your generosity.
Don't know, don't care. Oswald is plausible but so are a dozen other scenarios. A lot of the "magic bullet" bs is very confident people who don't know how wacky ballistics can be. Eyewitness testimony is worse than useless due to the way memory works. Every removedin the world was in Houston because it's a major city, an oil city enmeshed in US imperialism, because the president was there, and because the US is full of crooks and spies.
It's all silly bullshit. Who cares who turned Kennedy in to a meme? What matters is what happened as a result; The repercussions on civil rights, the Vietnam war, all those shitty Time magazine articles on The Kennedys. Who pulled the trigger is a historical curiosity, a fun factoid for trivia night. It ultimately isn't important. Who pulled the trigger on the gun that killed Dr. King? Doesn't matter, the feds did it whether they were the ones that pulled the trigger or not. They stood to benefit, they exploited the situation to the fullest. Doesn't matter if the gunman was FBI or some random white supremacist, if it was a planned op or stochastic violence. Dr. King was removed. Who shot the Romanovs? We know exactly who, when, where, and why. And it doesn't matter because there were still rumors and BS about surviving Romanovs for decades afterwards, even though everyone knows exactly what happened. Who pulled the trigger on Darren Seals? Doesn't matter, the cops killed him whether they pulled the trigger or just set up the material circumstances in which is death became useful to the state. What would we change if we figured out which pig did it? Nothing. Ferguson wouldn't change, America wouldn't change. We know who the killers are. The people pulling the trigger are just foot soldiers in the class war. The ruling class, the capitalists, are the ones driving all of this. There's not going to be some great revelatory moment where it's revealed that Allen Dulles personally fired the brain-explodey gun to take out Kennedy and everything changes. That's not how the machine works.
I think conspiracies are a great way to radicalize certain types of people away from liberalism and electoralism, but at a certain point, it's just arguing over minutia by people who have no real means of ascertaining whether that minutia is true or not. "Was Malcolm X assassinated by the NOI or by the FBI?" is a simple question if we rephrase it as "Did the FBI engineer Malcolm X's assassination?" or "Was the FBI planning to remove Malcolm X from the picture" (the answer to both is yes), but it becomes a matter of minutia if we start asking whether the people who shot him were FBI agents distinguished as NOI members or FBI informants recruited from the FBI. Was Louis Farrakhan a federal asset or were members of his closest circle who persuaded him to order the hit federal assets? Did Farrakhan explicitly order the hit or was it more of a "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest" type of deal? All minutia, and outside of getting unredacted FBI records, there's no real way for an investigative journalist to conclusively figure out.
The glaring hole for 9/11 Truth is motive. The US doesn't need to establish casus belli, especially during the 90s-00s when the US was the sole hegemon. Where was the casus belli when the US invaded Grenada or Panama during the 90s? Maurice Bishop was authoritarianTM? Noriega was a drug lord? Just look at how the US shamelessly lie and cover for the Zionist entity right now. And this is with social media that the US doesn't completely control (Tiktok). Travel back to 2001 where social media didn't exist outside of rando forums and cable news was starting to become a thing. The US had complete control over media. They could easily just tap in to the average American's Islamophobia, and the closest thing they have to opposition would be Parenti writing articles in magazines and publishing books nobody reads.
I think this is the attitude we should look at with all conspiracies. The actual "nuts and bolts" the minutia, is something people spend years of their life overanalysing and memorising, but when you ask them what the consequences were, and how the US government used this event to further their own interests, you get blank stares or generic boilerplate conspiracy ranting about "them."
just don't bother arguing with the Yankees about this, their brains can't really process the arguments. the materialism part of their mind turns off when it comes to 9/11, it's a unique case.
This is your take? I mean, the insider trading stuff is pretty heavy evidence that people knew ahead of time. People with money and resources to act on this foreknowledge. And the case that we are presented with by the commission is, well, a story of people close to important state actors conspiring to commit the crime. The state dept story is a conspiracy theory, even if truncated, obfuscated, covered-up, that is still what they presented us with. Oh yeah, and that many in the intelligence community knew of the attackers presence in the US, others knowing of an impending attack, and the attackers being closely related to Saudi intelligence, ya know, the intelligence service buttresses with US technology and training in close partnership. But yeah, just like “UFO’s”.
Some folks are presented with facts which should cause alarm and suspicion but instead reel and dismiss, and I can only point to a lack of intellectual curiosity, ideology, or a motivated viewpoint based on a perceived in-group’s general opinion which steers then into taking the state department position, and that of the Atlantic Monthly. “Actually it’s all chaos and accident, and our pattern seeking brains project meaning onto events which are random.” I’m nit saying that’s your position, but it is a common refrain to dismiss real conspiracies, and reminds me of Parenti’s take on historians who talk about “the reluctant US empire who rose to the occasion at a critical juncture to bumble its way into global dominance”. Like, no calculation or conspiring required.
As if these shit hole leaders are braying at every opportunity to make money dropping bombs. Just god smiling on them I guess. Nothing to see here.
Ey bro I've been around the whole time. I know all this shit. I'm not impressed. "Take your lack of intellectual curiosity" somewhere else. 9/11 was blowback for America's adventures in the Middle East and Afghanistan. Bunch of guys flew planes in to buildings. No one in the alphabet soup put it together because 1.) al-Qaeda was trying to blow up the WTC all the time. 9/11 was, what, their second? Third attempt? 2.) the US Intelligence agencies aren't magical all knowing wizards and no one group had all the pieces needed to figure all of this out and 3.) There's like 500 conspiracies related to 9/11, but "9/11 was a false flag" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams" is just silly bullshit. US intelligence letting Saudi intelligence play games with them? Sure. USAPATRIOT being pre-written and just waiting for the inevitable excuse because there was always going to be some excuse, because the US pisses off so many people? Sure. The US intel agencies had all the information they needed but didn't put the pieces together? Sure. US Intel being too arrogant to understand what their catspaws are up to? Sure.
There were all kinds of conspiracies going on. Boring, banal conspiracies that the US gets up to all the time. Not cool guy stuff like the US, idk what the contemporary bs even is, remote controlling the planes? the planes were holograms? The pentagon wasn't actually hit? I have no idea, because I stopped caring literally a decade ago.
Ok, dismiss everything. My point is that there is a ton of data points which should raise eyebrows of researchers, and to dismiss with such certitude in the face of unanswered/unanswerable questions is just as unreasonable as being credulous with every conspiracy theory posited. Your conflation of people troubled by these data points and questions with the fringest of conspiracy theorists reeks of unmerited condescension. A more reasonable position would be to state your personal feeling on the matter but acknowledge that there are unknowns and unknowables and certain evidence that make any sort of confidence one way or another impossible at this point in time. Instead it’s “this is just UFO shit” and I was surprised this is your take.
Dismiss what, exactly? OP is alleging that there's something unusual about recovering documents from the crash sites. There isn't. There's no question to ask here because there's no reason to think that recovered passports are evidence of something unusual.
What am I dismissing? The US had all the evidence and didn't put it together because of inter-service rivalries, compartmentalization, and it being the 90s when we were still banging rocks together to make fire? Bush was in tight with the Saudi's and the bin Ladens? al-Qaeda was mostly an invention of the US intelligence services, the US's perception of a clandestine military organization that formed during the Soviet-Afghan war with CIA assistance? al-Qaeda tried to blow up the WTC all the time, it was like their favorite hobby. Where is the new information? What's the truth that's being hidden? The US did it? it was a false flag? What is there to investigate or reveal?
Can we dial this back a little, because I respect the posting I’ve seen from you over the years and internet debating stresses me out. I think I may have used a couple loaded phrases to poke a little, and I would like to clarify where I have contributed to a misunderstanding.
I appreciated the first part of your response where you linked to information about the things that were found at crash sites. I found this as cogent reasoning and respectful practice, as I am not swayed by the passports, not to mention jet fuel etc.
I shouldn’t have said “dismiss everything” and I should have made clear that I took umbrage with what I interpreted as equivocation between legitimate paths of inquiry and irresponsible and wild conspiratorial speculation (UFO shit, as I put it). To me, you were saying all 9/11 questioning contra the official narrative is conspiracy theory. This irked me ngl.
When I said dismiss everythin in the fillowing response, I was alluding to you presenting a cohesive narrative with facts which didn’t really address some if the points my first response, in particular the point about insider trading. None of the facts I pointed out and none of the facts you pointed out are immiscible, and could be explained away under the paradigm of “the official narrative”. Like who knows what networks could’ve tipped off investors. I can accept that.
But I thank you for pointing out long standing relationships between Saudi’s and the Bush family, both in official state operations and myriad business ventures. Poppy and a select group of his closest pals in US intelligence and otherwise were absolutely instrumental and intimately involved in modernizing Saudi intelligence, and he was personally involved in seeing Saudi funds reintegrated into US investments. All of the networks that surround these people and their activities are characterized by subterfuge, lies, in dealing, fucking holes in the ground for energy, fraudulent investment schemes, and pursuing war for profit. Even if all evidence pointed to the straight forward narrative, one should be chilled with how much these folks directly benefitted from the expansion of the military budget and intensification of secrecy and surveillance at scale in the aftermath. We saw a 2 trillion dollar transfer of public wealth to the defense industry in as many decades, to give a sense of the incentive structure their cohort had to pursue such an open ended war in such a geopolitically important region. This does not include the private wealth pursued by like, every single general and JCoS asshole after their “service” to use soviet maps to strip mine the regions that had decimated and conquered for empire.
We could go on trading details toward this or that end, but to me the previous paragraph is sorta my reasoning as to why the official narrative should be critically evaluated, and where it is weak or points to troubling and unanswered lines of inquiry, well all the more reason to press. It is strange that these calculating and conspiring fucks were able to use their networks and conspiring to personally enrich themselves and pals over decades in adjacent and directly related industries, but this 2 trillion dollar gift from god required none of that. Maybe I am naive or somehow uncritical for this still being unsettling to me, and enough for me to keep an open mind to counter narratives.
It is pretty uncontroversial to say that people in a position to take advantage of this event for personal, political, and imperial aims did so the umpth degree. I think where we might disagree is whether it is necessary to pursue the question of “were these actors, who may have been in a position to tip the scales in favor of this event, act to or fail to act so as to contribute to this eventuality” as a legitimate line of inquiry, or if the facts as presented obviate the need to do so.
You’re cool and funny and I respect your posting. I don’t post much, and I lack the wherewithal to engage most the time. I hope this made any sense and that my good faith and lack of malice come through in the tone of this message.
*edited for clarity (i hope)
My apologies. I allowed twenty years of... idk, dealing with "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" to color my perceptions of this discussion and I got really angry. That was not appropriate.
Also apologies for where my communication fell short.
I'll take your reasonable position.
There is a lot of unknown and unknowable stuff but it all seems like bullshit to me. Like you said, that position is reasonable. I'm being the reasonable person here.
Word. That’s fair. I was just put off by what I interpreted as an unfair equivocation between attempting to apply material analysis to major historical events and undisciplined conspiratorial waxing. Having spent ungodly hours attempting to form a cohesive thought on the matter, even the most conservative interpretation of evidence leaves me with nothing like the confidence on display in advocating on behalf of “the official narrative”. “I think it’s bullshit but there is merit in pursuing questions with a critical disposition” seems way more honest and comradely a response than “even if there is a ton of contravening evidence problemetizing the official narrative, it is all bullshit and I am correct”. So thank you for your generosity.
thoughts on kennedy assassination?
Don't know, don't care. Oswald is plausible but so are a dozen other scenarios. A lot of the "magic bullet" bs is very confident people who don't know how wacky ballistics can be. Eyewitness testimony is worse than useless due to the way memory works. Every removedin the world was in Houston because it's a major city, an oil city enmeshed in US imperialism, because the president was there, and because the US is full of crooks and spies.
It's all silly bullshit. Who cares who turned Kennedy in to a meme? What matters is what happened as a result; The repercussions on civil rights, the Vietnam war, all those shitty Time magazine articles on The Kennedys. Who pulled the trigger is a historical curiosity, a fun factoid for trivia night. It ultimately isn't important. Who pulled the trigger on the gun that killed Dr. King? Doesn't matter, the feds did it whether they were the ones that pulled the trigger or not. They stood to benefit, they exploited the situation to the fullest. Doesn't matter if the gunman was FBI or some random white supremacist, if it was a planned op or stochastic violence. Dr. King was removed. Who shot the Romanovs? We know exactly who, when, where, and why. And it doesn't matter because there were still rumors and BS about surviving Romanovs for decades afterwards, even though everyone knows exactly what happened. Who pulled the trigger on Darren Seals? Doesn't matter, the cops killed him whether they pulled the trigger or just set up the material circumstances in which is death became useful to the state. What would we change if we figured out which pig did it? Nothing. Ferguson wouldn't change, America wouldn't change. We know who the killers are. The people pulling the trigger are just foot soldiers in the class war. The ruling class, the capitalists, are the ones driving all of this. There's not going to be some great revelatory moment where it's revealed that Allen Dulles personally fired the brain-explodey gun to take out Kennedy and everything changes. That's not how the machine works.
I think conspiracies are a great way to radicalize certain types of people away from liberalism and electoralism, but at a certain point, it's just arguing over minutia by people who have no real means of ascertaining whether that minutia is true or not. "Was Malcolm X assassinated by the NOI or by the FBI?" is a simple question if we rephrase it as "Did the FBI engineer Malcolm X's assassination?" or "Was the FBI planning to remove Malcolm X from the picture" (the answer to both is yes), but it becomes a matter of minutia if we start asking whether the people who shot him were FBI agents distinguished as NOI members or FBI informants recruited from the FBI. Was Louis Farrakhan a federal asset or were members of his closest circle who persuaded him to order the hit federal assets? Did Farrakhan explicitly order the hit or was it more of a "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest" type of deal? All minutia, and outside of getting unredacted FBI records, there's no real way for an investigative journalist to conclusively figure out.
The glaring hole for 9/11 Truth is motive. The US doesn't need to establish casus belli, especially during the 90s-00s when the US was the sole hegemon. Where was the casus belli when the US invaded Grenada or Panama during the 90s? Maurice Bishop was authoritarianTM? Noriega was a drug lord? Just look at how the US shamelessly lie and cover for the Zionist entity right now. And this is with social media that the US doesn't completely control (Tiktok). Travel back to 2001 where social media didn't exist outside of rando forums and cable news was starting to become a thing. The US had complete control over media. They could easily just tap in to the average American's Islamophobia, and the closest thing they have to opposition would be Parenti writing articles in magazines and publishing books nobody reads.
I think this is the attitude we should look at with all conspiracies. The actual "nuts and bolts" the minutia, is something people spend years of their life overanalysing and memorising, but when you ask them what the consequences were, and how the US government used this event to further their own interests, you get blank stares or generic boilerplate conspiracy ranting about "them."
just don't bother arguing with the Yankees about this, their brains can't really process the arguments. the materialism part of their mind turns off when it comes to 9/11, it's a unique case.