Ugh these people suck so bad. On average, western leftists are worse than useless. Some bullet points are kinda interesting, even if annoying.

  • miz [any, any]
    ·
    3 hours ago

    okay dronie

    Tankies [1] don’t usually believe that Stalin or Mao “did nothing wrong”, although many do use that phrase for effect (this is the internet, remember). We believe that Stalin and Mao were committed socialists who, despite their mistakes, did much more for humanity than most of the bourgeois politicians who are typically put forward as role models (Washington? Jefferson? JFK? Jimmy Carter?), and that they haven’t been judged according to the same standard as those bourgeois politicians. People call this “whataboutism” [2], but the claim “Stalin was a monster” is implicitly a comparative claim meaning “Stalin was qualitatively different from and worse than e.g. Churchill,” and I think the opposite is the case. If people are going to make veiled comparisons, us tankies have the right to answer with open ones.

    To defend someone from an unfair attack you don’t have to deify them, you just have to notice that they’re being unfairly attacked. This is unquestionably the case for Stalin and Mao, who have been unjustly demonized more than any other heads of state in history. Tankies understand that there is a reason for this: the Cold War, in which the US spent countless billions of dollars trying to undermine and destroy socialism [3], specifically Marxist-Leninist states. Many western leftists think that all this money and energy had no substantial effect on their opinions, but this seems extremely naive. We all grew up in ideological/media environments shaped profoundly by the Cold War, which is why Cold War anticommunist ideas about the Soviets being monsters are so pervasive a dogma (in the West).

    The reason we “defend authoritarian dictators” is because we want to defend the accomplishments of really existing socialism, and other people’s false or exaggerated beliefs about those “dictators” almost always get in the way — it’s not tankies but normies [4] who commit the synecdoche of reducing all of really existing socialism to Stalin and Mao. Those accomplishments include raising standards of living, achieving unprecedented income equality, massive gains in women’s rights and the position of women vis-a-vis men, defeating the Nazis, raising life expectancy, ending illiteracy, putting an end to periodic famines, inspiring and providing material aid to decolonizing movements (e.g. Vietnam, China, South Africa, Burkina Faso, Indonesia), which scared the West into conceding civil rights and the welfare state. These were greater strides in the direction of abolishing capitalism than any other society has ever made. These are the gains that are so important to insist on, against the CIA/Trotskyist/ultraleft consensus that the Soviet Union was basically an evil empire and Stalin a deranged butcher.

    There are two approaches one can take to people who say “socialism = Stalin = bad”: you can try to break the first leg of the equation or the second. Trotskyists take the first option; they’ve had the blessing of the academy, foundation and CIA money for their publishing outfits, and controlled the narrative in the West for the better part of the last century. But they haven’t managed to make a successful revolution anywhere in all that time. Recently, socialism has been gaining in popularity… and so have Marxism-Leninism and support for Stalin and Mao. Thus it’s not the case that socialism can only gain ground in the West by throwing really existing socialism and socialist leaders under the bus.

    The thing is, delinking socialism from Stalin also means delinking it from the Soviet Union, disavowing everything that’s been done under the name of socialism as “Stalinist”. The “socialism” that results from this procedure is defined as grassroots, bottom-up, democratic, non-bureaucratic, nonviolent, non-hierarchical… in other words, perfect. So whenever real revolutionaries (say, for example, the Naxals in India) do things imperfectly they are cast out of “socialism” and labeled “Stalinists”. This is clearly an example of respectability politics run amok. Tankies believe that this failure of solidarity, along with the utopian ideas that the revolution can win without any kind of serious conflict or without party discipline, are more significant problems for the left than is “authoritarianism” (see Engels for more on this last point). We believe that understanding the problems faced by Stalin and Mao helps us understand problems generic to socialism, that any successful socialism will have to face sooner or later. This is much more instructive and useful than just painting nicer and nicer pictures of socialism while the world gets worse and worse.

    It’s extremely unconvincing to say “Sure it was horrible last time, but next time it’ll be different”. Trotskyists and ultraleftists compensate by prettying up their picture of socialism and picking more obscure (usually short-lived) experiments to uphold as the real deal. But this just gives ammunition to those who say “Socialism doesn’t work” or “Socialism is a utopian fantasy”. And lurking behind the whole conversation is Stalin, who for the average Westerner represents the unadvisability of trying to radically change the world at all. No matter how much you insist that your thing isn’t Stalinist, the specter of Stalin is still going to affect how people think about (any form of) socialism — tankies have decided that there is no getting around the problem of addressing Stalin’s legacy. That legacy, as it stands, at least in Western public opinion (they feel differently about him in other parts of the world), is largely the product of Cold War propaganda.

    And shouldn’t we expect capitalists to smear socialists, especially effective socialists? Shouldn’t we expect to hear made up horror stories about really existing socialism to try and deter us from trying to overthrow our own capitalist governments? Think of how the media treats antifa. Think of WMDs in Iraq, think of how concentrated media ownership is, think of the regularity with which the CIA gets involved in Hollywood productions, think of the entirety of dirty tricks employed by the West during the Cold War (starting with the invasion of the Soviet Union immediately after the October Revolution by nearly every Western power), and then tell me they wouldn’t lie about Stalin. Robert Conquest was IRD [5]. Gareth Jones worked for the Rockefeller Institute, the Chrysler Foundation and Standard Oil and was buddies with Heinz and Hitler. Solzhenitsyn was a virulently antisemitic fiction writer. Everything we know about the power of media and suggestion indicates that the anticommunist and anti-Stalin consensus could easily have been manufactured irrespective of the facts — couple that with an appreciation for how legitimately terrified the ruling classes of the West were by the Russian and Chinese revolutions and you have means and motive.

    Anyway, the basic point is that socialist revolution is neither easy (as the Trotskyists and ultraleftists would have it) nor impossible (as the liberals and conservatives would have it), but hard. It will require dedication and sacrifice and it won’t be won in a day. Tankies are those people who think the millions of communists who fought and died for socialism in the twentieth century weren’t evil, dupes, or wasting their time, but people to whom we owe a great deal and who can still teach us a lot.

    Or, to put it another way: socialism has powerful enemies. Those enemies don’t care how you feel about Marx or Makhno or Deleuze or communism in the abstract, they care about your feelings towards FARC, the Naxals, Cuba, DPRK, etc. They care about your position with respect to states and contenders-for-statehood, and how likely you are to try and emulate them. They are not worried about the molecular and the rhizomatic because they know that those things can be brought back into line by the application of force. It’s their monopoly on force that they are primarily concerned to protect. When you desert real socialism in favor of ideal socialism, the kind that never took up arms against anybody, you’re doing them a favor.


    from https://redsails.org/tankies/

    • intresteph@discuss.online
      ·
      3 hours ago

      I have a feeling that maga is gonna love that text when defending trump. They aren’t defending the authoritarian, they’re just celebrating his accomplishments!

      No authority is the best authority.

          • brain_in_a_box [he/him]
            ·
            3 hours ago

            You think people shouldn't be allowed to respond to you? That sounds pretty authoritarian, you tankie.

          • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
            ·
            3 hours ago

            Do you take any negative reception to your comments as proof of whatever point you are trying to make? If you have a criticism to make in a public forum, shouldn't you reasonably expect a response that might likewise be critical?

            • cicebazna@discuss.online
              ·
              3 hours ago

              Well, if I walk into a room full of maga and point out that they are behaving like maga and they go off on me, should I take their negative reception seriously?

              The article was spot on, and continues to be. I think it’s a little funny that more lemmy ‘communists’ don’t just own up to it.

              I guess my view of communism is different. However, this is the internet after all. Everyone is kind of a dick.

              • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                ·
                3 hours ago

                Should the people you've gone out of your way to antagonize take you seriously if you actively refuse to even articulate a criticism (even when directly invited to multiple times) and just post vague smug shit?

                And look, for all the whining about "dog-piling" and "swarming" that people make about our instance, you can have replies to your comments, or you can have downvotes where nobody expresses an actual criticism and nobody gains anything.

                  • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                    ·
                    3 hours ago

                    We literally do not have downvotes, hence all the replies trying to get somebody to make an actual point.

                    How can people have this sort of smug self-confidence in their beliefs if they cannot articulate a single point even when directly invited to do so? Literally one of you just make a point and then give a "why". Preferably make the "why" better than "because I received any negative reception for my vague but obviously antagonistic comment."

                    • cicebazna@discuss.online
                      ·
                      3 hours ago

                      The article has a bunch of bullets. Pick one. Spot on. My point is the article was right. I mean, just own it. Chasing people away from communism is pretty much all lemmy communists do lol.

                      And, what I meant is I use voyager as my client, and it allows me to hide the voting thing. So.. it’s just missing. I wouldn’t know if you had or did not have it. You mentioned it. 🤷‍♂️

                      • robinn_ [none/use name]
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        2 hours ago

                        Multiple comments have gone through bulletin points and explained why they’re wrong. If you can’t engage with specific criticism then don’t defend the article?

                        And if you say seriously engaging with criticism will get you a ton of dismissive replies, this is actually what willfully ignoring it will do, and has done.

                        You have no idea what communism is. I am 100% certain of that.

                      • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                        ·
                        2 hours ago

                        The article has a bunch of bullets. Pick one. Spot on

                        Okay, so, you are saying that you know for a fact that communist orgs 'hyperfocus on bureaucracy'. Which orgs have you been to to know that, I wonder?

                        Sounds suspiciously as if this is just a vibes-based analysis for you, and that you think that this article painting a picture that coincides worth what you have been told by the people who invaded Iraq and other countries.

                      • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                        ·
                        2 hours ago

                        You pick one! Jesus Christ it was your post in the first place that lead to this whole comment chain! You can't even pick your own goddamn bullet point? You have got to be fucking with me dawg!

                        Holy fuck seriously, what orgs are you a part of so I know not to have anything to fucking do with them, then you can talk about "chasing people away from communism."

                        Hell, try elaborating that point even. How do you think we are chasing people from communism? Are our shit-posts just too shitty?

                        • cicebazna@discuss.online
                          ·
                          2 hours ago

                          Just stop shit-posting and dunking entirely and focus on promoting the positive parts of communities with equality in a more strategic way to effect measurable change.

                          Communism is grounded in compassion, in the idea of working toward a truly liberated society, not one that merely replaces the oppressors of yesterday with new oppressors today. And yet, when I look at many so-called leftists, I see them betraying that principle every day, more interested in ideological purity or geopolitical “victories” than in standing for justice. They might claim they’re against fascism, but when they excuse brutality and silence in the name of their ideology, I see little difference between them and the right-wing authoritarians they claim to despise.

                          Maybe I’m just a soft dick.

                          • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                            ·
                            2 hours ago

                            It is the communist movements that you decry as 'replacing oppressors of yesterday with the oppressors of today' that have managed to massively improve people's lives. They are the ones that fought against colonialism and capitalism and achieved some success. Not the people who whine about how bad we are and then just side with the colonial metropoles that exterminate and enslave the rest of the world.

                            The sort of actions and policies that we support have been proven to work for the liberation of humanity. You have been proven to work for the world's enslavement.

                                      • Nakoichi [they/them]M
                                        ·
                                        2 hours ago

                                        you know which part you're just being willfully ignorant at this point with every single reply I'm done with you.

                                  • GenderIsOpSec [she/her]
                                    ·
                                    2 hours ago

                                    I want to oppress you so bad actually, when the Dictatorship of The Queer is a reality I will personally find you so I can transify you bridget-pride-stay-mad hell yeah call me authoritarian, red fash and all the rest of the meaningless buzzwords, you're still going to put on the cat ears and the thigh highs

                                    • tripopov@discuss.online
                                      ·
                                      2 hours ago

                                      Im actually kinda into thigh highs, I don’t have the cat ears though but I bet I would look cute. And since I’m gay already, it’s only a matter of time.

                                      • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                        ·
                                        2 hours ago

                                        You literally decry communist movements that were successful in their struggles for liberation from your colonialism (this includes the USSR, by the way) as simply switching the oppressor.

                                        You are either extremely ignorant, or are just outright malicious.

                                        • tripopov@discuss.online
                                          ·
                                          2 hours ago

                                          Moving forward, we don’t need oppressors. It’s possible to do it as a community. We can all get along.

                                          • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                            ·
                                            1 hour ago

                                            HAHAHA.
                                            What is this nonsense? Do you suggest the people under your colonial bondage just get along with their oppressors? Or that workers hold hands with the capitalists?

                                            What do you suggest people of Vietnam should have done? Korea? Cuba? Laos? China?

                                            • tripopov@discuss.online
                                              ·
                                              1 hour ago

                                              Clearly the governments who control people need to be removed. I thought that was obvious, but… I guess not. I don’t think they need to be replaced with another oppressive government. I think it should be given to the people. You keep telling me what I think… and you keep getting it wrong.

                                              • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                ·
                                                1 hour ago

                                                Clearly the governments who control people need to be removed.

                                                So that NATO can invade them again and resubjugate them as your near-slaves?
                                                How about no, and how about you stop pretending that you know what's best for the people your empire has harmed and has been harming?

                                                I don’t think they need to be replaced with another oppressive government.

                                                You are yet to remove any of the governments of the colonial metropoles, while storing with colonial oppressors at every turn.
                                                If you want to stop the oppression of the world outside of the Imperial core, you need to do at least something about the states of said core. So far it is only the spooky MLs and other communists that you hate so much who do something viable regarding the matter, including having the 'oppressive' governments that defend their people against your empire.

                                                You are yet to expiration what you think the people in Vietnsm, Cuba, Korea, etc. should have done, and why antagonising us and helping your empire is higher on your priority list than replacing your governments with something else.

                                                • tripopov@discuss.online
                                                  ·
                                                  1 hour ago

                                                  You seem to like blaming people for things they don’t actually have direct control of.

                                                  You say I want slaves, but I obviously don’t.

                                                  You ask why I haven’t removed the government… like I have the button?

                                                  It’s very clear you’re not interested in world where everyone comes together. You want a few people to suffer first. And that’s where we differ.

                                                  Everything you’re saying about me is wrong. It doesn’t make me feel bad. It just makes you look intolerant.

                                                  Say more about how I want to colonize things so I can laugh.

                                                  ✌️

                                                  • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                    ·
                                                    9 seconds ago

                                                    You seem to like blaming people for things they don’t actually have direct control of.

                                                    You have full control over you coming here, antagonising us, and talking about how communists in the rest of the world should have no defense against your empire.

                                                    You claim that those governments are/were oppressive, but you are yet to present any viable alternative. Just vague 'oh, they should just have no governments', completely unsupported by history.

                                                    You say I want slaves, but I obviously don’t.

                                                    Cool. How do you suggest the rest of the world stops subjugation by your empire - which western anarchists like you have not only done nothing against, but have even supported? And do consider that if your suggestion is unsupported by history, you are just being unserious.

                                                    So far, it seems that you just want NATO to restore the old colonial gold over the rest of the world.

                                                    You ask why I haven’t removed the government… like I have the button?

                                                    Why do you want the rest of the world to follow your vision that is unsupported by history that you (plural) have never managed to achieve anywhere, and while being completely against what had worked and what has massively improved people's lives, then? You have no examples to show, and you argue that the rest of the world should be rid of defenses against you.

                                                    It’s very clear you’re not interested in world where everyone comes together.

                                                    The USSR was one of the most consistent and successful forces in having most of the world come together to fight colonialism. You argue that that was 'oppressive'.

                                                    You want a few people to suffer first

                                                    You quite literally want for people to suffer under capitalism until you somehow topple every government (somehow, while doing nothing and while supporting the states and people who suppress any sort of change for good that does not involve getting rid of governments immediately), and are unwilling to support any changes for the better until then.

                                                    Everything you’re saying about me is wrong.

                                                    You literally claimed that the movements that fought against colonialism and capitalism successfully were somehow had and oppressive.

                                                • tripopov@discuss.online
                                                  ·
                                                  1 hour ago

                                                  You might, but that’s not the vibe I’m getting from the above comments advocating for an oppressive government. I really don’t get the “tell them what they think” tactic. It just makes them look intolerant and illiterate.

                                                  • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                    ·
                                                    edit-2
                                                    1 hour ago

                                                    You are literally saying that the governments that fought against colonialism were/are oppressive, and then you go 'I don't actually think that!'

                                                    You are also yet to explain what the victims of your colonialism should have done.
                                                    By the way, this includes Nazi German settler-colonial genocide that targeted, among others, a group I belong to. Please, tell me how much you would love for my family to be enslaved and worked to death, infant.

                              • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                ·
                                edit-2
                                2 hours ago

                                Right.

                                For you, there is no difference between (people being forced to work 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, having no guaranteed access to housing, education and healthcare, women not being protected from marital SA, having a life expectancy of 30 or so years), and literally the opposite with life expectancy rising by 60% within 30 years.

                                You also see no difference between literal old-style colonialism and the lack thereof. Literal pro-colonial white European child is what you are.

                                Please, tell us more about compassion and how bad we want to 'oppress' people by giving women fundamental rights, providing people in general with essential needs, including housing and healthcare, eliminating illiteracy, etc.

                                EDIT: if you want colonialism so much, why don't you volunteer to be treated as people were treated under the Red Rubber laws?

                                Also, it's funny how you don't want any authority over you, but want to subjugate non-white people as your slave and near-slaves

                                • garpujol@discuss.online
                                  ·
                                  2 hours ago

                                  What? I have no idea where you got that. You just read whatever you want?

                                  This is my problem, you just make shit up. I want everything in your last paragraph. We don’t need to have an oppressive government to make that happen.

                                  • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    2 hours ago

                                    What? I have no idea where you got that. You just read whatever you want?

                                    I don’t accept any oppressor as a step forward.

                                    Either you do not actually speak about any movement that we support, or you don't see any difference between before and after they succeeded. Which is it?

                                    This is my problem, you just make shit up

                                    I literally listed some of the things that the USSR managed to achieve within the first 30 years of its existence. Pretty sure almost all of that also applies to the PRC (just with the different starting line expectancy).

                                    I want everything in your last paragraph

                                    Cool. Then you want the USST, the PRC, Cuba, liberated Korea, etc.

                                    We don’t need to have an oppressive government to make that happen.

                                    You claim that every movement that achieved those things was 'oppressive'. As such, this claim of yours is unsupported.

                                    EDIT: Also, what is your plan for defending against a NATO invasion?

          • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
            ·
            3 hours ago

            Is this the first time you come to any forum and start pissing and shitting all over the place?

            Try to mildly criticize western anarchists or liberals and I guarantee that you will get dogpiled immediately.

              • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                ·
                3 hours ago

                Well, firstly, you need to check your eyesight, because at the very least I am not a westerner.

                Secondly, in case you couldn't understand a sentence worth of text, I suggested you go to a western anarchist or liberal forum and try to antagonise them. You will get swarmed and dogpiled right that instant.