I'm not referring to achieving socialism in the US though. I was talking more about how to bring people out of this anti-China mindset. I'm not sure about appealing to material conditions first. I'm skeptical that a movement like that wouldn't just stop at european social democracy. They'll be happy to exploit the rest of the world as long as they have healthcare which to me sounds like an intensification of imperialism.
Libs can be turned into socialists, and socialists can be turned into anti-imperialist socialists. It's much harder to get people to go straight to anti-imperialism because that rarely speaks to their personal material conditions (and Americans aren't particularly interested in other countries to begin with).
The problem is that if you talk to some non-socialist about China they don't actually care either way. It's just not a factor in their day-to-day life. So even if you make great points and they nod along in agreement, none of that really takes root, and all of it can be easily undone by a few CHYNABAD news cycles. It's purely theoretical to them, and on stuff that exists only in a theoretical vacuum you can't compete with the vast media apparatus that unabashedly supports the State Department. You see this all the time with libertarians -- you have good conversations with them about the evils of U.S. interventions, but then they'll lap up so much "scary foreign country is now the devil" propaganda (especially regarding socialist states) that they'll wind up supporting all sorts of imperialist policies.
But if you turn them into socialists first? Then there's a wealth of anti-imperialist literature that comes with the socialist canon. Then the hardline anti-communism that permeates American culture softens or disappears entirely, which prevents backsliding as soon as there's a big media push to demonize some socialist country. Then they become comfortable with giving a shit about people they'll never meet.
Well, no. About the only people calling out anti-China propaganda in the U.S. are socialists. Not all socialists are calling it out, but the only ones calling it out are socialists.
Jeffrey Sachs isn't a socialist and he was calling it out. There was a thread on r/worldnews about the US being the greatest threat to democracy the other day. I checked some of the profiles of people calling it out and many of them didn't seem socialist.
Okay, setting aside absolutes: you're far more likely to find socialists calling this out than non-socialists. And as I outlined above, I'm a lot more confident that socialists aren't going to backslide as soon as the next breathless report comes out.
What I fear is that in creating this "10 million mass", you end up not creating anti-imperialists, but more fervent ideological enemies to China. You turn an apolitical lib into a "socialist" but in so doing create an ideological cold warrior that's far more useful to imperialists. If I had to choose if some lib were to remain apolitical or turn into a breadtube type, I'd rather they remain passive and apolitical.
Apolitical folks are often at least supportive of imperialism, though -- they're not political, but they'll participate in all sorts of patriotic stuff precisely because they believe that transcends ordinary politics. They'll cheer on the flag at the 4th of July and support the troops and casually demonize The Bad Countries if only because "America, fuck yeah" is such an easy, uncontroversial position that doesn't even require any conventional politics to hold.
We're not going to get to anti-imperialism through political ignorance and apathy. And I don't see how making someone a socialist focused on domestic issues will automatically make them an ideological cold warrior on foreign issues. That just doesn't add up. There's all sorts of anti-imperialist material they'll at least run into when reading up on socialism, and there are all sorts of anti-imperialist socialists they'll start to hear more frequently.
I'm not referring to achieving socialism in the US though. I was talking more about how to bring people out of this anti-China mindset. I'm not sure about appealing to material conditions first. I'm skeptical that a movement like that wouldn't just stop at european social democracy. They'll be happy to exploit the rest of the world as long as they have healthcare which to me sounds like an intensification of imperialism.
Libs can be turned into socialists, and socialists can be turned into anti-imperialist socialists. It's much harder to get people to go straight to anti-imperialism because that rarely speaks to their personal material conditions (and Americans aren't particularly interested in other countries to begin with).
The problem is that if you talk to some non-socialist about China they don't actually care either way. It's just not a factor in their day-to-day life. So even if you make great points and they nod along in agreement, none of that really takes root, and all of it can be easily undone by a few CHYNABAD news cycles. It's purely theoretical to them, and on stuff that exists only in a theoretical vacuum you can't compete with the vast media apparatus that unabashedly supports the State Department. You see this all the time with libertarians -- you have good conversations with them about the evils of U.S. interventions, but then they'll lap up so much "scary foreign country is now the devil" propaganda (especially regarding socialist states) that they'll wind up supporting all sorts of imperialist policies.
But if you turn them into socialists first? Then there's a wealth of anti-imperialist literature that comes with the socialist canon. Then the hardline anti-communism that permeates American culture softens or disappears entirely, which prevents backsliding as soon as there's a big media push to demonize some socialist country. Then they become comfortable with giving a shit about people they'll never meet.
I'm unconvinced. Even the so-called socialists today help demonize China. They end up becoming even more fervent demonizers if anything.
Well, no. About the only people calling out anti-China propaganda in the U.S. are socialists. Not all socialists are calling it out, but the only ones calling it out are socialists.
Jeffrey Sachs isn't a socialist and he was calling it out. There was a thread on r/worldnews about the US being the greatest threat to democracy the other day. I checked some of the profiles of people calling it out and many of them didn't seem socialist.
Okay, setting aside absolutes: you're far more likely to find socialists calling this out than non-socialists. And as I outlined above, I'm a lot more confident that socialists aren't going to backslide as soon as the next breathless report comes out.
What I fear is that in creating this "10 million mass", you end up not creating anti-imperialists, but more fervent ideological enemies to China. You turn an apolitical lib into a "socialist" but in so doing create an ideological cold warrior that's far more useful to imperialists. If I had to choose if some lib were to remain apolitical or turn into a breadtube type, I'd rather they remain passive and apolitical.
Apolitical folks are often at least supportive of imperialism, though -- they're not political, but they'll participate in all sorts of patriotic stuff precisely because they believe that transcends ordinary politics. They'll cheer on the flag at the 4th of July and support the troops and casually demonize The Bad Countries if only because "America, fuck yeah" is such an easy, uncontroversial position that doesn't even require any conventional politics to hold.
We're not going to get to anti-imperialism through political ignorance and apathy. And I don't see how making someone a socialist focused on domestic issues will automatically make them an ideological cold warrior on foreign issues. That just doesn't add up. There's all sorts of anti-imperialist material they'll at least run into when reading up on socialism, and there are all sorts of anti-imperialist socialists they'll start to hear more frequently.