They grew up with so much propaganda they are delusional, unable to comprehend the reality.
oh no no no
Also, bonus points to the person who doubled down and is now claiming that China is lying about the number of Uyghurs that existMy god the one who put up links...
Now here is what YOU need to do: Go through the link list.
Debunk all the evidence there (no cherry picking please).
Trace every and all claims back to CIA, US government or whoever else you wanna blame. This includes foreign journalists reports from Xinjiang itself. Remember - you need to do all of them.
Debunk the leaks from the Chinese government itself. This includes the non-leaked publiclly available information like job listings for camp guards, security cameras that specifically recognize Uighurs etc.
Debunk the 14,000+ victims testimonies in the database links.
Debunk the Chinese sources themselves.
Debunk all the satellite imagery.
Do all of this one by one.
Remember - each and every claim, every data point, every image, every document and every testimony.
"Sir! You will debate me in the marketplace of ideas! You will go through everything one-by-one, or you lose. I will apply no scrutiny to the sources myself. That's your job."
Remember, the burden of proof is on you to debunk claims, that’s how logic works!
They do this every time. I remember some dumbass lib stumbled into r/Chapo and did this where they linked 5 article they obviously didn't read, they just immediately Googled the topic to show how every liberal news outlet agrees with the headlines they've read (and only the headlines).
The first one was literally Adrian Zenz's article in Foreign Policy and if you just clicked on his name it stated he was part of the Victims Of Communism Foundation, etc. I mentioned it was obvious propaganda and they went something like "that's 1 down four to go" in the smuggest way possible. And it turns out the other articles (Vox, The Independent, and I can't remember the other two probably The Guardian and like NYT or something) all cited the China Cables which Zenz is one of the two main people who translated and I believe had sole control of said documents at the time. The articles didn't actually mention Zenz, or anyone else, involved with the China Cables usually -- I think one of them did. But it wasn't hard to find out and the complete lack of sources for anything should have been questionable at least.
But no, these fucking morons never do the reading and cover for it by becoming increasingly smug and lazy. And don't seem to mind mixing in obvious propaganda into their bullshit for some reason. They just don't care.
"Sort through my shit articles I haven't read. I have the liberal journalist-approved opinion. If there's propaganda in there and you point it out, that's cherry-picking. It has no bearing on my ability to understand the world or journalism. It's never my fault if I fall for propaganda."
Have definitely come across it a number of times. The first time I thought that they were really going in and citing legitimate sources to challenge me with. What I found instead were articles with headlines that said what they wanted to, and had very dubious sources and claims.
the best part is state department lawyers did exactly that and "couldn't find enough evidence"
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
That's still a poisoned article and we know what these people like doing on a football pitch.
you don't have to tell me, my screenname in this one videogame (marvel mobile game) is "The CCP is Evil", no joke
Lmao
Please please please post their reaction when they catch on :sicko-hair:
It looks just like a Maximum Security Prison in the US. That’s probably why they designed it that way.
:michael-laugh:
"This is literally Hitler's wildest dream come true, a monument to death and a celebration of oppression"
"What? Oh it's a maximum security prison. Okay that makes sense. It needs to be Aushwitz 2.0 then. Can't have those thugs escaping."
Why do they know so much about how high security prisons look like in every different place lol wtf
Lmao just goes to show the kind of vetting they put into their supposed evidence against China.
It's what drives me the most insane about all of this. It is ridiculously easy to go through the sources of any of these anti-China articles published and see it is bullshit, but no one does it. They are literally lying straight to peoples faces and they are eating it up.
Kind of intensifies my resentment of the West. People just want an excuse to hate China here. It's pure xenophobia, and perhaps a buried unconscious fear that they will do to us what the West has done to the world for the past few centuries.
I wouldn't say no one does it. There's pushback on worldnews and not necessarily from socialists either.
I was anti-china at one point too and also had the same type of confirmation bias, though not to the same degree (mine was more of a dismissive sort and not ideological hatred level). I needed to be destroyed first before I could doubt and I had to doubt before I could be open. I was at least good faith the whole way through this process of change. I'm not sure how to handle the types just filled with ideological hate and bad faith.
those communists have prisons! prisons!! i can't imagine ever having something so inhumane as that here in the united states
"I wonder how r/sino and r/genzedong will try to spin this one now that these images are out in the wild"
:che-laugh:
When they find out those are prisons in the USA they breathlessly say that the people inside deserve to be there and it's no biggie that the USA jails 5% of the world's population.
It's important to be specific about this stuff because even if your sentiment is exactly right -- as is the case with @SorosFootSoldier's comment -- libs will take whatever opportunity they can to derail a substantive conversation into quibbling over semantics or harmless misstatements.
Honestly this is the reason why I don't even like posting anymore. People will always look for the smallest details in my statement then blow it up and use it to browbeat me into submission for their victory. It's so tiring and nothing gets done.
It's all good! But it's very annoying how, especially on reddit, libs will attack you over semantics because they know they don't have a leg to stand on. It's like if I said "Jeff Bezos sucks because he's a trillionaire" some dweeb bootlicker in the comments would be like "umm ACTUALLY he's a billionaire, you're wrong, ipso facto you're a terrorist sympathizer and a member of ISIS." Cannot stand it. Normal people don't act like this, terminally online weirdos do, and I should know because I am one lol.
Shout out to the reddit blog post with fun facts about which cities were the most "reddit addicted" and Eglin Air Force base was at the top of the list.
But they'll accuse you of arguing semantics when you point out r*nd's theories don't line up with what they are saying(charity wouldn't exist in that world), or that they are fundamentally using words wrong.
My least favorite type are the ones who fixate on grammar/spelling.
I'm glad to not see it here, but god help you if you use the wrong form of 'there.' when you explain why nazis are bad.
Then again, that's how :reddit-logo: do anyway.
I think that everyone should treat this like a duty and do their part to counter the hysteria but I can see your point. From what you're saying it seems that even if we gather the numbers to be a force on the big politics subs, one mistake can derail the whole effort. We need to be perfect because we don't have institutional backing, while our opponents do.
Yeah, it's ridiculous, especially when (as this post shows) you can just make shit up wholesale and people will pile on so long as it supports something they already believe. Changing people's minds is usually going to be an uphill battle, but it can be done.
but it can be done.
How though? Should we be organizing brigades? We need strategy, desperately.
This is probably the biggest question facing the left, and the biggest barrier to growing the left to where it can hold real power at a national level. A few thoughts that are by no means comprehensive:
- It's going to take time, at least for most people.
- Some people are far easier to bring around than others. We should focus most of our attention on people most likely to come around the soonest, but it's good to have at least some outreach to everyone.
- The most likely (sizeable) group to become leftists is probably left-leaning libs. The second most likely group is currently apolitical folks who would directly benefit from leftist policies, but the Bernie campaign showed that overreliance on this group is risky -- it's likely that a lot of apolitical people are going to remain apolitical.
- We need a highbrow, lowbrow, and middlebrow approach, because different people will respond to different approaches.
- It's going to be easier to build a socialist coalition around domestic policies (e.g., Medicare for All) and then turn them into anti-imperialists than it would be to lead with anti-imperialism. Most people care first about their immediate material conditions, not the conditions of someone they've never met on the other side of the planet, but if you get them started down the socialist path with domestic policies it's not hard to turn that thinking international.
- De-stigmatizing just the word "socialism" is crucial, and is far more important than insisting that people use a theoretically-precise definition of "socialism" (to the extent one even exists).
- It's far more useful to have 10,000,000 quasi-leftists who support something like Medicare for All than it is to have 10,000 "True Leftists." Only one of these has the immediate potential to become a mass movement that actually gets anything done. It's counterproductive to be too critical of groups that are at least trying to have mass appeal on the grounds that they aren't True Leftists.
- It's similarly counterproductive to write off any leftist who gains an ounce of notoriety or success as a grifter. Attacking people who are at least trying to move others left should be done selectively.
- While it's obviously better to talk to people in real life, social media is modern propaganda and most people get at least some of their political opinions from what they read online. Posting may not be praxis, but it can be persuasive.
- Being an asshole online has limited potential to persuade anyone, no matter how right you are. It has its place, but we shouldn't ratchet it up to 11 for anyone but chuds. Anyone remotely persuadable should lighter bullying, and less of it.
You're absolutely right that this should be a major focus of the left, at least until we get a lot bigger.
I'm not referring to achieving socialism in the US though. I was talking more about how to bring people out of this anti-China mindset. I'm not sure about appealing to material conditions first. I'm skeptical that a movement like that wouldn't just stop at european social democracy. They'll be happy to exploit the rest of the world as long as they have healthcare which to me sounds like an intensification of imperialism.
Libs can be turned into socialists, and socialists can be turned into anti-imperialist socialists. It's much harder to get people to go straight to anti-imperialism because that rarely speaks to their personal material conditions (and Americans aren't particularly interested in other countries to begin with).
The problem is that if you talk to some non-socialist about China they don't actually care either way. It's just not a factor in their day-to-day life. So even if you make great points and they nod along in agreement, none of that really takes root, and all of it can be easily undone by a few CHYNABAD news cycles. It's purely theoretical to them, and on stuff that exists only in a theoretical vacuum you can't compete with the vast media apparatus that unabashedly supports the State Department. You see this all the time with libertarians -- you have good conversations with them about the evils of U.S. interventions, but then they'll lap up so much "scary foreign country is now the devil" propaganda (especially regarding socialist states) that they'll wind up supporting all sorts of imperialist policies.
But if you turn them into socialists first? Then there's a wealth of anti-imperialist literature that comes with the socialist canon. Then the hardline anti-communism that permeates American culture softens or disappears entirely, which prevents backsliding as soon as there's a big media push to demonize some socialist country. Then they become comfortable with giving a shit about people they'll never meet.
I'm unconvinced. Even the so-called socialists today help demonize China. They end up becoming even more fervent demonizers if anything.
Well, no. About the only people calling out anti-China propaganda in the U.S. are socialists. Not all socialists are calling it out, but the only ones calling it out are socialists.
Jeffrey Sachs isn't a socialist and he was calling it out. There was a thread on r/worldnews about the US being the greatest threat to democracy the other day. I checked some of the profiles of people calling it out and many of them didn't seem socialist.
Okay, setting aside absolutes: you're far more likely to find socialists calling this out than non-socialists. And as I outlined above, I'm a lot more confident that socialists aren't going to backslide as soon as the next breathless report comes out.
What I fear is that in creating this "10 million mass", you end up not creating anti-imperialists, but more fervent ideological enemies to China. You turn an apolitical lib into a "socialist" but in so doing create an ideological cold warrior that's far more useful to imperialists. If I had to choose if some lib were to remain apolitical or turn into a breadtube type, I'd rather they remain passive and apolitical.
Apolitical folks are often at least supportive of imperialism, though -- they're not political, but they'll participate in all sorts of patriotic stuff precisely because they believe that transcends ordinary politics. They'll cheer on the flag at the 4th of July and support the troops and casually demonize The Bad Countries if only because "America, fuck yeah" is such an easy, uncontroversial position that doesn't even require any conventional politics to hold.
We're not going to get to anti-imperialism through political ignorance and apathy. And I don't see how making someone a socialist focused on domestic issues will automatically make them an ideological cold warrior on foreign issues. That just doesn't add up. There's all sorts of anti-imperialist material they'll at least run into when reading up on socialism, and there are all sorts of anti-imperialist socialists they'll start to hear more frequently.
This is false because "United States" means "prison". We are all prisoners. Please save us comrade Xi.
Thanks for the source I guess, but I'm generalizing here to make my point that the USA is throwing stones inside a glass house.
"you don't have to tell me, my screenname in this one videogame (marvel mobile game) is "The CCP is Evil", no joke"
The CCP is finished :sicko-zoomer:
This one gets me real good for some reason. It's like this guy said it like he'd expect people to be floored in awe. What the fuuuuck lmao
Because freedom to these people means
- Cheap liquor
- No sales tax
- Bad roads
The best part though is that New Hampshire does have sales tax
It's just on food and water and other important things
But people don't learn about that when they just drive up from Cape Cod to buy a sofa for $200 cheaper
It’s just on food and water and other important things
really? it's the other way around in most other US states. weird
It exists to make people hate paying taxes. Thats why it isnt just included in the price tag.
Stores can do that, they just don't want to lower their prices or mess up the nice round numbers to accommodate it.
Pasta incoming
From the Bolshevik red terror, Spanish red terror, Finnish red terror, Greek red terror, Russian gulag system, great purge, collectivization, holodomor, dekulakization, anti-cosmopolitan campaign, Kazakh genocide, violent population transfer in the Soviet Union, kattyn massacre, qey shibir in Ethiopia, isaaq genocide in Somalia, halloween massacre in Angola, Chinese laogai system, great leap forward, cultural revolution, anti-rightist campaign, mass cleansing of landlords by Mao Zedong, North Korean famine in the nineties, shining path in Peru, naxalite rebellion in India, communist insurgency in Philippines, Cuban gulag system, political repression by the collectivos in Venezuela, Romanian genocide by Nicolae Ceausescu, Cambodian genocide by Pol Pot, Vietnamese genocide by Ho Chi Minh, Laotian genocide, Afghanistan genocide during the previous communist regime, political repression in Nicaragua by Daniel Ortega, political repression in socialist Burma under General Ne Win to the subsequent uighur genocide, communists have surely been responsible for the most grotesque crimes against humanity all across history.
Mister Blinken, please, the communists are eating gyros and shitting in the streets, my country yearns for freedom!
Dekulakization
Owned
Communist insurgency in Philippines
Oh, the horror! A small band of farmers with guns burning down Dole factories!
Anti-rightist campaign
Lmao
Naxalite rebellion in India
Don't make me tap the sign again
Mass cleansing of landlords by Mao Zedong
Cope and seethe. Also didn't he just leave it up to the villagers to do what they wanted to the landlords, and they mostly chose to just lynch them? I'm sure they were wonderful people
Cuban gulag system
You mean prisons? I'm pretty sure those are just prisons
North Korean famine in the nineties
Most isolationist nation on earth experiences major resource shortages after their global superpower trade partner suddenly ceases to exist, more at 9
Romanian genocide by Nicolae Ceausescu
I mean he wasn't exactly a great guy but.... ?
Cambodian genocide by Pol Pot
Why does my CIA and Kissinger endorsed regime keep committing pogroms? Also let's ignore that communist Vietnam literally invaded the country to overthrow him
Vietnamese genocide by Ho Chi Minh
?
Laotian genocide
?????
to the subsequent uighur genocide
Do I even have to say it
"The spanish red terror"
When you start a coup against a democratic government, declare that you will cause mass killings in several cities to install a reign of terror so no one opposes the coup, and then get mad because the commies gained power (due to you destabilizing the country) and killed a bunch of reactionaries.
[–]TumazFormosa 6 points 8 hours ago
Walls, clear fields for security. Just disgusting. I met young Chinese citizen online that hates CCP but thinks Xinjiang genocide and HK movements are only excuses the free world use to oppress China. Just how fcking deeply they were brainwashed?
[–]Kuro199 5 points 7 hours ago
They grew up with so much propaganda they are delusional, unable to comprehend the reality.
:agony-deep:
Last time they told me the satellite images of their camps were actually from Australia! Got banned from Genzedong or whatever the fuck their name is soon after.
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