I mean I know the tank man photo itself is bullshit but what's the counterargument for stuff like 27 through 30 from this article. I didn't think anybody was contesting it happened just the narrative around the tank man photo.
Those are all real, there was obviously violence in and around the square and people were killed. I suppose I could have given them the benefit of the doubt that this is what they meant, but given the sentence immediately after where they reference (CW: Violence) "power washing tank crushed corpses into the gutters" it seems more likely they were talking about the propagandistic version which didn't happen.
What's the argument that didn't happen because some of these picture essays absolutely have pictures of former humans turned to paste by tanks, there's multiple of them in this thread. I can link them if you really want but idk why anybody would want to see them.
Is it really that much of a jump from "people were turned to paste by tanks" to "they washed that paste away with hoses"
I mean the concept of ehat happens to a human body when it gets run over by a tank is pretty well established and its pretty well established they ran people over with tanks, where is it the unrealistic jump to conclusions happens?
It didn't happen to "tank man" and its stupid he's become a folk hero but that doesn't mean it didn't happen to any of the other thousands of people that were there.
I didn't see a single picture in that entire thing of 'people turned into paste' by tanks. I see a couple pictures of tanks on fire, and a couple of bodies that may have been hit by a tank or a truck or something, but nothing that fits that description. I'm not even disputing it happening, it might have, but I have never seen photo evidence of it in any of these nor other photo reels of the events.
That being said, the Chinese government doesn't dispute that people died. They dispute how many died and where they were killed (none actually in the Square).
Never said it was in those pictures i said it had been posted elsewhere but ok since weve moved thengoal posts to it only counting if i show explicit pictures of humans turned to paste here you go. Picture 14, hope everybody's happy.
I don't think anyone who's done a decent amount of reading or investigation on the subject will deny that there was violence mostly in the side streets around the square but also some smaller amount in it. But plenty of people rightfully dispute that it was some kind of one sided massacre between a militarised state and peaceful protestors.
There absolutely were peaceful protestors, most of whom left the square and surrounding area long before the worst of the violence, and there were also armed, violent anti-government mobs who burned people to death with molotovs, best people to death, and fired on soldiers either with weapons that were taken from dead soldiers or provided from elsewhere. A few people on both sides who never actually fired on the opposing group were almost certainly killed due to being amongst those who did.
But there's also a collosal amount of bullshit with little to no evidence paraded about and over the decades the kinds of numbers of dead and the stories of the violence have nakedly been exaggerated and inflated for propaganda purposes to absurd degrees compared to the evidence and actual reporting at the time.
For example, the mantra now from a lot of Western media as well as some beholden human rights groups like Amnesty is that 1000s of peaceful protestors were killed in the square with indiscriminate machine gun fire and the deliberate crushing of people by tanks into paste, as the original person in the post alleges. Yet essentially none of the reporting from the time indicates those specifics, often refuting it, nor does a lot of the legal and investigative follow up even from some of the organisations of students and exiled protestors.
As an example, here is some of the reporting by the couple that won a Pulitzer prize for their reporting of the protests, before during and after it came to a head.
It describes the mostly peaceful removal and retreat of the majority of protestors.
It describes fighting from both the military and hardliners, including the firebombing and destruction of at least 18 military vehicles and many many more soldiers including those beaten to death. It also describes hardliners beating people, including an American, who tried to step in before they killed soldiers. (This sort of thing will appear again in another example shortly). These actions weren't all defensive acts of desperation by peaceful protestors. They advanced on police and military lines. They used buses full of armed people to attack the military. They encircled military trucks and attacked those on board.
After the violence they were able to confirm around 100-150 deaths. The student movement claimed 'maybe' 500 at the time to the journalists, but didnt offer evidence and obviously have reason to inflate the numbers to them. (I'll come back to those numbers in a bit so keep them in mind).
Meanwhile, the Chinese government reported over 1000 of their own were seriously injured or killed.
John Simpson, veteran BBC reporter and general darling of thr British establishment, was also there and obviously far from a friend of China. In fact, he even wrote a series of fictionalized novels in which China is a main villain and even openly used his own experience of being questioned and beaten while tied to a chair in Lebanon as the basis of a far more extreme (fictional) scene of his alter ego being tortured by the Chinese state. Yet his reporting from the time is closer, and perhaps even more damning to thr student hardliners, than that which I shared above. In fact, he was even pulled into the violence of the students when he felt the need to intervene and wasn't shy about what he thought of them in later interviews:
The foreign correspondent claims he once ‘waded in’ during the Tiananmen Square protests in Peking and ‘whacked’ a mob of angry students to stop them killing Chinese soldiers.
He said one such event happened while he was reporting from Tiananmen Square in 1989. He saw protesters dragging soldiers from an armoured personnel carrier and beating them savagely.
He told the Radio Times: ‘The crowd was a very rough lot, not nice students, and they wanted blood.
They smashed the head of one of the soldiers in, and then they started to smash another one in and I thought, ‘I can’t stand by and just let this happen,’ and so I waded in. I used to be a rugby player and a boxer and I’m quite big and so on… and so I whacked them to one side.’
Even many of the foreign pressure groups representing exiled students or friends and family of people who died often don't support the kind of accusations that are now commonplace or accepted wisdom in the West. Obviously plenty are just sensationalist propagandists who'll say anything, but the ones who actually do some real legal work for example don't agree. Take this example from the Human Rights In China group legal action in 1999, reported in the Guardian.
After ten years of investigation and copious funding they listed 155 protestors killed in the violence in their legal petition. Nothing close to the numbers student groups claimed to journalists on the ground at time and nothing compared to the now often claimed 1000s od deaths.
Likewise, the one example of something even approaching the 'tanks running over people until they're red paste' is an account of a tank breaking through a barricade and hitting six people, five of which apparently died. The sixth is giving the testimony and apparently had his legs crushed (later amputated). Not to get too gruesome, as it's horrible regardless, but the five people killed were identified and the person recounting the story still had their (admittedly destroyed) legs. There's no accusations that this was a tactic on behalf of thr military or that it happened multiple times or that they drove over people repeatedly to somehow conceal the evidence.
Even in this more measured case, it should probably be noted that these are mostly eye witness testimonies from activists in exile and that HRIC is based in and funded predominantly by the US, including, of course, the infamous CIA funded National Endowment for Democracy.
So yeah, I realise this is long, but it's important to offer even just a few examples of the way these already not exactly neutral accounts have spiraled far beyond any even claimed reality at the time. So I think it's important when presented with a pretty gruesome but non-descript photo of vague gore on the pavement for example, to consider what we actually know about what it depicts and the context in which it was taken. Does it actually depict tanks running over peaceful protestors until they were somehow mostly liquid to be washed down the drain? Or is it just presented with that story, or a much more grounded, realistic one that's later been explored and exaggerated over the years without actually demonstrating it?
Regardless, I'd encourage people to read more of the on the ground reporting from the time in general. There are also plenty of in depth works that are more sympathetic to the Chinese state that others could link you and were shared in the big Tiananmen struggle post a while back, but for obvious reasons (and length) I just tried to focus on just some of the details and context from even extremely un-China-friendly sources here.
Tbf, I think the original person you were talking to was specifically talking about violence to the tank man, but I'm not going to move the goalposts here, since idk what they meant.
I wasn't exactly sure what exactly you meant.
Thanks! This is the first time I've seen that particular picture, captioned that way. I'd definitely heard of trucks hitting people during the events, and I definitely believed people got hit by tanks, but normally it is described in a ludicrous fashion of 'hundreds of people mowed down and crushed to paste in the streets'. This particular image is perfectly believable, and fits with both Chinese government and other witnesses description of the events.
that blurry pixelated mess? sure it could be i guess. it could be just about anything. it could even be someone run over by protesters who were joyriding in the apcs they stole
Lmao actually fuck off thanks for showing there's literally nothing that would satisfy you.
I posted. A picture of dead bodies next to flattened bicycles and people say that's not a flattened body.
So I post a flattened body and you say you can't even tell what that is.
So your pitching the theory the government sent a bunch of soldiers in in tanks to stop a protest and then those soldiers got peacefully annihilated by the protestors for no reason and didn't do anything back?
Yes it absolutely does just like the other pictures of dead bodies next to crushed bikes look like dead bodies but people complained there wasn't literally pictures of a body turned to past in the last one so, exactly like I said, here's another 2 dozen pictures of the event including somebody turned to paste, hope everybody's happy.
I deleted that post because I reread the article amd an eyewitness said a tank ran over 11 people, not confirmed. It was by no means an accident. It was the result of people disabling tanks with molotov cocktails.
I'm not trying to "cope" or minimize it. But the way the original post phrased is inaccurate. Rebels fighting the government is not protestors being crushed into paste
29. The driver of an armored personnel carrier that rammed through student lines, injuring many, lies dead after being beaten by students who set his vehicle on fire during an army attack on Tiananmen Square, on June 4, 1989.
Cw: dead bodies
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2014/06/1989-tiananmen-square-protests-photos/100751/
I mean I know the tank man photo itself is bullshit but what's the counterargument for stuff like 27 through 30 from this article. I didn't think anybody was contesting it happened just the narrative around the tank man photo.
Those are all real, there was obviously violence in and around the square and people were killed. I suppose I could have given them the benefit of the doubt that this is what they meant, but given the sentence immediately after where they reference (CW: Violence) "power washing tank crushed corpses into the gutters" it seems more likely they were talking about the propagandistic version which didn't happen.
What's the argument that didn't happen because some of these picture essays absolutely have pictures of former humans turned to paste by tanks, there's multiple of them in this thread. I can link them if you really want but idk why anybody would want to see them.
Is it really that much of a jump from "people were turned to paste by tanks" to "they washed that paste away with hoses"
I mean the concept of ehat happens to a human body when it gets run over by a tank is pretty well established and its pretty well established they ran people over with tanks, where is it the unrealistic jump to conclusions happens?
It didn't happen to "tank man" and its stupid he's become a folk hero but that doesn't mean it didn't happen to any of the other thousands of people that were there.
I didn't see a single picture in that entire thing of 'people turned into paste' by tanks. I see a couple pictures of tanks on fire, and a couple of bodies that may have been hit by a tank or a truck or something, but nothing that fits that description. I'm not even disputing it happening, it might have, but I have never seen photo evidence of it in any of these nor other photo reels of the events.
That being said, the Chinese government doesn't dispute that people died. They dispute how many died and where they were killed (none actually in the Square).
Never said it was in those pictures i said it had been posted elsewhere but ok since weve moved thengoal posts to it only counting if i show explicit pictures of humans turned to paste here you go. Picture 14, hope everybody's happy.
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html
I don't think anyone who's done a decent amount of reading or investigation on the subject will deny that there was violence mostly in the side streets around the square but also some smaller amount in it. But plenty of people rightfully dispute that it was some kind of one sided massacre between a militarised state and peaceful protestors.
There absolutely were peaceful protestors, most of whom left the square and surrounding area long before the worst of the violence, and there were also armed, violent anti-government mobs who burned people to death with molotovs, best people to death, and fired on soldiers either with weapons that were taken from dead soldiers or provided from elsewhere. A few people on both sides who never actually fired on the opposing group were almost certainly killed due to being amongst those who did.
But there's also a collosal amount of bullshit with little to no evidence paraded about and over the decades the kinds of numbers of dead and the stories of the violence have nakedly been exaggerated and inflated for propaganda purposes to absurd degrees compared to the evidence and actual reporting at the time.
For example, the mantra now from a lot of Western media as well as some beholden human rights groups like Amnesty is that 1000s of peaceful protestors were killed in the square with indiscriminate machine gun fire and the deliberate crushing of people by tanks into paste, as the original person in the post alleges. Yet essentially none of the reporting from the time indicates those specifics, often refuting it, nor does a lot of the legal and investigative follow up even from some of the organisations of students and exiled protestors.
As an example, here is some of the reporting by the couple that won a Pulitzer prize for their reporting of the protests, before during and after it came to a head.
John Simpson, veteran BBC reporter and general darling of thr British establishment, was also there and obviously far from a friend of China. In fact, he even wrote a series of fictionalized novels in which China is a main villain and even openly used his own experience of being questioned and beaten while tied to a chair in Lebanon as the basis of a far more extreme (fictional) scene of his alter ego being tortured by the Chinese state. Yet his reporting from the time is closer, and perhaps even more damning to thr student hardliners, than that which I shared above. In fact, he was even pulled into the violence of the students when he felt the need to intervene and wasn't shy about what he thought of them in later interviews:
Even many of the foreign pressure groups representing exiled students or friends and family of people who died often don't support the kind of accusations that are now commonplace or accepted wisdom in the West. Obviously plenty are just sensationalist propagandists who'll say anything, but the ones who actually do some real legal work for example don't agree. Take this example from the Human Rights In China group legal action in 1999, reported in the Guardian.
After ten years of investigation and copious funding they listed 155 protestors killed in the violence in their legal petition. Nothing close to the numbers student groups claimed to journalists on the ground at time and nothing compared to the now often claimed 1000s od deaths.
Likewise, the one example of something even approaching the 'tanks running over people until they're red paste' is an account of a tank breaking through a barricade and hitting six people, five of which apparently died. The sixth is giving the testimony and apparently had his legs crushed (later amputated). Not to get too gruesome, as it's horrible regardless, but the five people killed were identified and the person recounting the story still had their (admittedly destroyed) legs. There's no accusations that this was a tactic on behalf of thr military or that it happened multiple times or that they drove over people repeatedly to somehow conceal the evidence.
Even in this more measured case, it should probably be noted that these are mostly eye witness testimonies from activists in exile and that HRIC is based in and funded predominantly by the US, including, of course, the infamous CIA funded National Endowment for Democracy.
So yeah, I realise this is long, but it's important to offer even just a few examples of the way these already not exactly neutral accounts have spiraled far beyond any even claimed reality at the time. So I think it's important when presented with a pretty gruesome but non-descript photo of vague gore on the pavement for example, to consider what we actually know about what it depicts and the context in which it was taken. Does it actually depict tanks running over peaceful protestors until they were somehow mostly liquid to be washed down the drain? Or is it just presented with that story, or a much more grounded, realistic one that's later been explored and exaggerated over the years without actually demonstrating it?
Regardless, I'd encourage people to read more of the on the ground reporting from the time in general. There are also plenty of in depth works that are more sympathetic to the Chinese state that others could link you and were shared in the big Tiananmen struggle post a while back, but for obvious reasons (and length) I just tried to focus on just some of the details and context from even extremely un-China-friendly sources here.
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Tbf, I think the original person you were talking to was specifically talking about violence to the tank man, but I'm not going to move the goalposts here, since idk what they meant.
I wasn't exactly sure what exactly you meant.
Thanks! This is the first time I've seen that particular picture, captioned that way. I'd definitely heard of trucks hitting people during the events, and I definitely believed people got hit by tanks, but normally it is described in a ludicrous fashion of 'hundreds of people mowed down and crushed to paste in the streets'. This particular image is perfectly believable, and fits with both Chinese government and other witnesses description of the events.
that blurry pixelated mess? sure it could be i guess. it could be just about anything. it could even be someone run over by protesters who were joyriding in the apcs they stole
Lmao actually fuck off thanks for showing there's literally nothing that would satisfy you.
I posted. A picture of dead bodies next to flattened bicycles and people say that's not a flattened body.
So I post a flattened body and you say you can't even tell what that is.
So your pitching the theory the government sent a bunch of soldiers in in tanks to stop a protest and then those soldiers got peacefully annihilated by the protestors for no reason and didn't do anything back?
i'm sorry but if that's the evidence, it's just weak
I posted multiple albums of dozens of pictures which have been corroborated by historians both western and Chinese.
It's literally primary historical documents.
If this is wek it again just shows that you are very determined to not be convinced.
does it look like a tank smashed person to you? it's nearly impossible to tell anything from that one single picture.
Yes it absolutely does just like the other pictures of dead bodies next to crushed bikes look like dead bodies but people complained there wasn't literally pictures of a body turned to past in the last one so, exactly like I said, here's another 2 dozen pictures of the event including somebody turned to paste, hope everybody's happy.
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Communists fighting communists for how the country wants to move forward is absolutely what I thought the common belief was.
Also "yea they ran over a bunch of people with tanks but they didn't mean to" is some IDF levels of cope.
Hate when I accidently run people over with tanks after I send tanks to stop what those people are doing.
I deleted that post because I reread the article amd an eyewitness said a tank ran over 11 people, not confirmed. It was by no means an accident. It was the result of people disabling tanks with molotov cocktails.
I'm not trying to "cope" or minimize it. But the way the original post phrased is inaccurate. Rebels fighting the government is not protestors being crushed into paste
Haha, thanks, Atlantic
There's definitely more gruesome photos than what's in there. I noticed they didn't include any of the soldiers burnt to death.
This isn't helping their case.