"And what if group is bad, is it bad then?" well fucking duh genius. And I'm sorry, are you saying poc aren't religious/christian or are you saying they're white supremacist? Why are you painting in such broad strokes? Aren't African Americans the ones going to church the most?
The problem is that when new atheists oppose "religion", they always do so with the implicit assumption that it refers to "white evangelicals" (or maybe white catholics)
Even before speaking of Christianity this automatically does a disservice to the world's non-Christian religions
And even when speaking of Christianity this leaves out denominations like Mainline Protestants, Orthodox, Quakers etc. It also leaves out predominantly non-white churches which are important to non-white communities. What about all the Christians in Latin America, Africa and Asia?
Christians can hijack the faith to peddle reactionary shit, but that's far from the whole picture. There's also liberation theology, Catholic workers, radical Christians (ahem :john-brown:) as well as loads of churches doing genuinely important work to help people who need it (e.g. feeding the poor). Clergy may also be more anti-capitalist than you think. Scripture can be incredibly radicalizing and is clearly anti-capitalist.
Finally the science/faith conflict shtick is just a giant misconception. There were and are Christian scientists, including Georges Lemaitre, the priest who helped come up with the big bang. Or Dr Francis Collins, director of the NIH who led the human genome project. Conflict thesis is dead. I think the real debate is now within the realm of philosophy.
Also there's a very clear contingent of imperialist new atheist reactionaries (you know the type :reddit-logo:). Far-right ideologies can spread with or without faith.
I love me some John Brown/liberation theology, but they emerged out of periods of radical social progress and change, not present neoliberal stagnation.
I sincerely hope that the potential for spirituality charging the Left with a sense of social purpose is there—but I also acknowledge that in present-day America, the dominant forms of religiosity are entwined with capitalism, individualism, and the existing social hierarchy.
Let’s not leave Hegel on his head: religion follows a society’s material order, not the other way around. I’m not celebrating the decline in church attendance-i think it mostly speaks to American atomization and general lack of purpose and unalienated time post-2000s.
Of course I'm not saying that. But the white evangelical bloc, whatever you want to call it, is probably the strongest force of reaction in the United States after the capitalists themselves. I'm glad to see their numbers go down.
Sure but all of these people suddenly without community aren't just going to join mutual aid groups. They're going to attracted to groups that line up with their pre existing biases
Except this is where the mass of members - not just the leadership - is highly reactionary. Arguably even more reactionary (source: was an evangelical for 30 years).
Kind of exactly the point. Organized religion as an institution in the US is largely reactionary. Therefore these churches are a network of reactionary "community institutions" literally acting as a catalyst to turn their community members (who weren't born reactionaries) more reactionary... Therefore, church membership being down is only good?
Therefore, church membership being down is only good?
Only if (a) American communities absent religious institutions are de-radicalizing and (b) American communities that retain religious institutions are not vulnerable to leftist rhetorical gambits.
I haven't seen (a). The techbro libertarian is no less reactionary than the midwestern evangelist. And I'm not sold on (b), either, given how many leftists have come out of black churches and immigrant synogogues.
Hell, the abolitionist movement was a religious-powered movement. As was the populist movement of the late 19th century.
Sure, no issue with liberation theology or spiritual leftist, of course. But the issue is that white evangelicalism represents the beliefs of like 25% of the US population, and wields and even larger, disproportionate amount of power. It's a group that is very unified in socio-political beliefs as well as theological beliefs. And those theological beliefs often have serious repercussions for the rest of us. And not just anti-LGBTQ views. You have any idea how many white evangelicals believe that everyone but them will spend eternity in a state of eternal, conscious torment? And how that leads to thinking the lives lived by most of us on earth is meaningless? This is a group that acts in an incredibly unified manner to oppress the poor and marginalized in America. They have numbers and power. And I get that if you're a leftist Christian it can be annoying to get lumped in with them. But at the same time we need to be able to talk about this very very large group of Americans that has fought and will continue to fight against any progress we want to make.
But the issue is that white evangelicalism represents the beliefs of like 25% of the US population, and wields and even larger, disproportionate amount of power.
The modern Evangelical community is comically removed from the founding principles of the Christian Gospel. At a certain point, they are simply consumerist vehicles of the capitalist state. The Televangelical is a classic instance of this problem, as it denudes religion of all its positive qualities - shared public space, human interaction, a religious leadership that exists as a member of the community - and leaves only the obligation to tithe and to conform to the dogmatic views of the charismatic preacher.
The problem with this system isn't that it's religious. The problem is that it's parasitic and corrupt.
This is a group that acts in an incredibly unified manner to oppress the poor and marginalized in America. They have numbers and power. And I get that if you’re a leftist Christian it can be annoying to get lumped in with them. But at the same time we need to be able to talk about this very very large group of Americans that has fought and will continue to fight against any progress we want to make.
I was raised a Catholic who kinda veered off into atheism. But as I get older, I begin to recognize how useful churches are as institutions of social organization and activism, and I regret losing touch with the Catholics as a community.
Lol pardon my fedora but "community institutions" Jesus fucking christ.
Organized religion in the US, specifically christianity, is the largest and most efficient pipeline to anti-LGBTQ/hyper capitalist/individualist/white supremacist/reactionary ideology - and has been since at least the 70's.
Aside from the almost inherently reactionary ideology of these religious institutions, much like philanthropy the primary function of the Church is to act as domestic tax havens. If we taxed church's in the US we'd generate something like $85 billion a year - 3x the amount needed to solve hunger in the US, 8x as much to solve homelessness. This is before the sheer network of brick & mortar church infrastructure that could (in my mind should) be seized and converted to shelters/health clinics/etc.
Long gone are the days of churches harvesting any ideals based in racial and economic justice. Referencing liberation theology, Catholic workers, and radical Christians as if that's a serious portion of religious affiliation in this country and not just Joel Olsteen mouth breathers is just bordering on romanticism. The idea that this is also largely focused on "white evangelicals" is also dumb shit given 1 in 3 American evangelicals are POC..
Long story short, leftists need to drop this myth that church communities are ripe for radicalization and organizing. The death of religious affiliation and church membership is a net good and has no bearing on ones personal spiritual belief OR our ability to organize for a socialist future.
I agree. I mean, in the spirit of comradeship I don't want to marginalize folks who, for example, believe in liberation theology. But yeah, the sheer size of Evangelicalism relative to more chill versions of Christianity in America means we have to treat it differently.
Though personally I say "white evangelical" because my personal experience has been 99.9% with specifically white evangelicals. I don't want to presume the beliefs and attitudes of POC evangelicals.
Sure - but herein lies the problem imo. Criticism of the institutions isn't an attack on your personal beliefs. We need to separate our personal spiritual beliefs from the institutions that are very reactionary, with real political power, on a global scale, that is almost always weaponized against our goals of racial justice, solidarity, anti-imperialism, LGBTQ rights, and more.
Idk, what are we supposed to do instead? In my personal experience, the only thing my church did as "community organizing" was to protest abortion clinics (they took credit for multiple clinics being taken down but idk how big their involvement was) and support our wars in the middle east. but I was raised a white catholic, so your milage my vary. It would be interesting to see which communities are leaving churches (I was pretty religious til I realized I'm queer)
I feel like we can celebrate that Christianity no longer has a hegemonic grip over american society (think about god telling bush to invade iraq, gay marriage, ect) without attacking christian socialists
Yeah, I dont see this as a necessarily good thing either and I'm not even religious. The main culprit for declining church membership is probably dissolution of all social bonds under the fist of capitalism, not some kind of slowly enlightening population. Even the wackiest evangelicals leaving churches aren't changing what's in their heads. They're just becoming even more deluded conspiracy theorists.
/r/atheism hours
"community institutions are dissolving at a faster rate than ever! we did it Reddit!"
⬇️
What about when those "community institutions" are usually insular and reactionary? And use their power to enforce white supremacy?
"And what if group is bad, is it bad then?" well fucking duh genius. And I'm sorry, are you saying poc aren't religious/christian or are you saying they're white supremacist? Why are you painting in such broad strokes? Aren't African Americans the ones going to church the most?
Non-white Christian here. Just want to say I hate it when people think of Christianity as the "white man's religion". It's exclusionary.
get their ass
The problem is that when new atheists oppose "religion", they always do so with the implicit assumption that it refers to "white evangelicals" (or maybe white catholics)
Even before speaking of Christianity this automatically does a disservice to the world's non-Christian religions
And even when speaking of Christianity this leaves out denominations like Mainline Protestants, Orthodox, Quakers etc. It also leaves out predominantly non-white churches which are important to non-white communities. What about all the Christians in Latin America, Africa and Asia?
Christians can hijack the faith to peddle reactionary shit, but that's far from the whole picture. There's also liberation theology, Catholic workers, radical Christians (ahem :john-brown:) as well as loads of churches doing genuinely important work to help people who need it (e.g. feeding the poor). Clergy may also be more anti-capitalist than you think. Scripture can be incredibly radicalizing and is clearly anti-capitalist.
Finally the science/faith conflict shtick is just a giant misconception. There were and are Christian scientists, including Georges Lemaitre, the priest who helped come up with the big bang. Or Dr Francis Collins, director of the NIH who led the human genome project. Conflict thesis is dead. I think the real debate is now within the realm of philosophy.
Also there's a very clear contingent of imperialist new atheist reactionaries (you know the type :reddit-logo:). Far-right ideologies can spread with or without faith.
I love me some John Brown/liberation theology, but they emerged out of periods of radical social progress and change, not present neoliberal stagnation.
I sincerely hope that the potential for spirituality charging the Left with a sense of social purpose is there—but I also acknowledge that in present-day America, the dominant forms of religiosity are entwined with capitalism, individualism, and the existing social hierarchy.
Let’s not leave Hegel on his head: religion follows a society’s material order, not the other way around. I’m not celebrating the decline in church attendance-i think it mostly speaks to American atomization and general lack of purpose and unalienated time post-2000s.
❤️
that's right
james cone is my namesake after all
Of course I'm not saying that. But the white evangelical bloc, whatever you want to call it, is probably the strongest force of reaction in the United States after the capitalists themselves. I'm glad to see their numbers go down.
Sure but all of these people suddenly without community aren't just going to join mutual aid groups. They're going to attracted to groups that line up with their pre existing biases
I don't know if declining church membership necessarily correlates to evangelicals suddenly becoming normal
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I mean...there’s definitely a lot of reasons people aren’t going to church anymore.
That the communities themselves have to address.
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Guess which aspects of organized religion manifestly aren't going away, despite secularization?
This doesn't apply to many religious institutions
Any institution can host reactionary leadership. Any institution can become insular over time.
What is the solution? Alienate ourselves for fear of coming in contact with these social elements does nothing to further our goals.
Except this is where the mass of members - not just the leadership - is highly reactionary. Arguably even more reactionary (source: was an evangelical for 30 years).
People aren't born reactionary. They're a product of their communities.
By all means, bring on the gulags and the reeducation camps. But leave the liberation theologists and the spiritual leftists out of it.
Kind of exactly the point. Organized religion as an institution in the US is largely reactionary. Therefore these churches are a network of reactionary "community institutions" literally acting as a catalyst to turn their community members (who weren't born reactionaries) more reactionary... Therefore, church membership being down is only good?
Only if (a) American communities absent religious institutions are de-radicalizing and (b) American communities that retain religious institutions are not vulnerable to leftist rhetorical gambits.
I haven't seen (a). The techbro libertarian is no less reactionary than the midwestern evangelist. And I'm not sold on (b), either, given how many leftists have come out of black churches and immigrant synogogues.
Hell, the abolitionist movement was a religious-powered movement. As was the populist movement of the late 19th century.
Sure, no issue with liberation theology or spiritual leftist, of course. But the issue is that white evangelicalism represents the beliefs of like 25% of the US population, and wields and even larger, disproportionate amount of power. It's a group that is very unified in socio-political beliefs as well as theological beliefs. And those theological beliefs often have serious repercussions for the rest of us. And not just anti-LGBTQ views. You have any idea how many white evangelicals believe that everyone but them will spend eternity in a state of eternal, conscious torment? And how that leads to thinking the lives lived by most of us on earth is meaningless? This is a group that acts in an incredibly unified manner to oppress the poor and marginalized in America. They have numbers and power. And I get that if you're a leftist Christian it can be annoying to get lumped in with them. But at the same time we need to be able to talk about this very very large group of Americans that has fought and will continue to fight against any progress we want to make.
The modern Evangelical community is comically removed from the founding principles of the Christian Gospel. At a certain point, they are simply consumerist vehicles of the capitalist state. The Televangelical is a classic instance of this problem, as it denudes religion of all its positive qualities - shared public space, human interaction, a religious leadership that exists as a member of the community - and leaves only the obligation to tithe and to conform to the dogmatic views of the charismatic preacher.
The problem with this system isn't that it's religious. The problem is that it's parasitic and corrupt.
I was raised a Catholic who kinda veered off into atheism. But as I get older, I begin to recognize how useful churches are as institutions of social organization and activism, and I regret losing touch with the Catholics as a community.
Lol pardon my fedora but "community institutions" Jesus fucking christ.
Organized religion in the US, specifically christianity, is the largest and most efficient pipeline to anti-LGBTQ/hyper capitalist/individualist/white supremacist/reactionary ideology - and has been since at least the 70's.
Aside from the almost inherently reactionary ideology of these religious institutions, much like philanthropy the primary function of the Church is to act as domestic tax havens. If we taxed church's in the US we'd generate something like $85 billion a year - 3x the amount needed to solve hunger in the US, 8x as much to solve homelessness. This is before the sheer network of brick & mortar church infrastructure that could (in my mind should) be seized and converted to shelters/health clinics/etc.
Long gone are the days of churches harvesting any ideals based in racial and economic justice. Referencing liberation theology, Catholic workers, and radical Christians as if that's a serious portion of religious affiliation in this country and not just Joel Olsteen mouth breathers is just bordering on romanticism. The idea that this is also largely focused on "white evangelicals" is also dumb shit given 1 in 3 American evangelicals are POC..
Long story short, leftists need to drop this myth that church communities are ripe for radicalization and organizing. The death of religious affiliation and church membership is a net good and has no bearing on ones personal spiritual belief OR our ability to organize for a socialist future.
I agree. I mean, in the spirit of comradeship I don't want to marginalize folks who, for example, believe in liberation theology. But yeah, the sheer size of Evangelicalism relative to more chill versions of Christianity in America means we have to treat it differently.
Though personally I say "white evangelical" because my personal experience has been 99.9% with specifically white evangelicals. I don't want to presume the beliefs and attitudes of POC evangelicals.
Sure - but herein lies the problem imo. Criticism of the institutions isn't an attack on your personal beliefs. We need to separate our personal spiritual beliefs from the institutions that are very reactionary, with real political power, on a global scale, that is almost always weaponized against our goals of racial justice, solidarity, anti-imperialism, LGBTQ rights, and more.
Idk, what are we supposed to do instead? In my personal experience, the only thing my church did as "community organizing" was to protest abortion clinics (they took credit for multiple clinics being taken down but idk how big their involvement was) and support our wars in the middle east. but I was raised a white catholic, so your milage my vary. It would be interesting to see which communities are leaving churches (I was pretty religious til I realized I'm queer)
I feel like we can celebrate that Christianity no longer has a hegemonic grip over american society (think about god telling bush to invade iraq, gay marriage, ect) without attacking christian socialists
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Yeah, I dont see this as a necessarily good thing either and I'm not even religious. The main culprit for declining church membership is probably dissolution of all social bonds under the fist of capitalism, not some kind of slowly enlightening population. Even the wackiest evangelicals leaving churches aren't changing what's in their heads. They're just becoming even more deluded conspiracy theorists.
:sicko-yes: