This is why we keep the "critical" in "critical support", comrades. What a hellworld we live in where this dumpster country is the second biggest threat to american hegemony.
I thought about that too... Aren't you strengthening rainbow imperialism by doing this sort of bullshit? You're essentially giving out ammo like candy to western liberals who are now going to screech even louder - "muh LGBT rights in Ruzzia!". At the same time, you're missing out on the opportunity to say "look, the West is full of shit, they only pretend to care about gay rights, but we here don't do these empty gestures". Not to mention that innocent LGBT people will get hurt because of this by being a political pawn.
Comrade Lenin said it 100+ years ago about Jewish people - "they are not the enemy, the capitalists are". A century passes - the game is still the same, they just found a new group to attack.
It's because "LGBT is imperialism!!1!" is just an excuse. The real reason they are doing this is, simply enough, because Russia's leadership is very conservative. Conservatives gonna conservative, they just need to present their target minority as a ploy from the enemy and voilà, persecution justified.
Yeah this is straight up reactionary shit. They say it's not meant to persecute people with different sexual orientations, rather just target "the movement", but wtf does that even mean? How do they even legally define what "the LGBT movement" is? Do they think that people are card-carrying members of some official LGBT organization? This is so vague that it allows basically any interpretation that they decide is politically expedient at any given time.
Depending on public opinion this could range from being virtually a nothing burger that will only be used to go after western sponsored political opposition groups (which would be foreign interference anyway, Russia already has laws for that), all the way to making life a nightmare for queer people and trying to completely erase them from public visibility. Basically what will happen is up to what the mood in the general Russian public is at any given time and how much pushback there is when the government oversteps, but unfortunately at the moment a lot of Russians have very reactionary views on this subject.
The sad part is that i'm not sure that the outcome would be any different even if the ruling party was a communist one, at least if it chose to tail the masses on this issue. It's a difficult problem to solve because a vanguard party should not be tailing the masses but it also should not impose completely unpopular policies that the masses are not yet ready for. The correct thing to do is to prepare the people for more progressive policy with a thorough campaign of education and normalization.
They say it's not meant to persecute people with different sexual orientations, rather just target "the movement"
This shit has me so baffled. "We don't hate queer people we're just gonna ban their most visible movement and make it illegal to teach sex education that isn't heteronormative"
The sad part is that i’m not sure that the outcome would be any different even if the ruling party was a communist one, at least if it chose to tail the masses on this issue.
At the very least there wouldn’t have been the reactionary backslide due to the return of the power of the church (especially the reactionary sections that were previously exiled).
I was thinking more along the lines of if tomorrow the communists seized power and had to govern a country that has already undergone this reactionary backslide. Of course if the SU never fell the circumstances and the social attitudes would be entirely different today, but we can't change the past, only the future.
True, but an alternate history is more realistic than another revolution now. Obviously there could be a revolutionary situation eventually, idk what the future looks like for them.
Y'know I get this is supposed to be against "rainbow capitalism", but with them also promoting the whole "traditional family values" bullshit it's certainly not a good look.
Reactionaries worldwide all understand the value of a scapegoat. Russia's bourgeoisie benefit from the populace blaming LGBTQ people for their problems just as much as the ones in the west do.
Cheap political points at the expense of vulnerable minorities, perhaps to create a possibility of accusing them of the ills of capitalism later, once the contradictions start biting down the road.
It's not even like we can depend on the KPRF to correct this mistake either.
Shame that misunderstandings about the human body leads to these things.
Why do we keep catching strays 😭
I don’t understand the motive. I know the West weaponizes us for everything, is it because of that?
Everyone catches strays, like when the LGBT death squad plants their rainbow flag on gaza or the US posts about their LGBT attack helicopter crew. The system alienates and fragments everyone by tricking one group it hates it slightly less than another. If you aren't principled, it's easy to buy into it.
They’re essentially pitting us against each other and some are unable to see it, or at worst they do see it and play into it.
for some people it might be that, for others it might just be reactionary conservative beliefs about gender.
It’s incredibly unfortunate and I can’t figure out which scenario is easier to remedy…
Or this interview with a gay Israeli veteran recalling a time during the Lebanon war when his fellow soldiers murdered gay civilians at random. Didn't seem to bother him much.
Major CW
Show
Fuck, that's extremely upsetting. Literally nauseating. That level of cruelty is genuinely unfathomable to me.
Reminder to the USSR widows that Putin and modern Russia are not our friends.
No shit. It seems like not everyone heard about Yeltsin’s self coup in 1993.
At first I was skeptical but it checks out, they’ve been misinterpreting people existing as Gay or Trans as some sorta Western delicacy or some reactionary nonsense for a lil while now. Extremely upsetting that THIS is one of the topics of criticism in Russia’s critical support.
They haven’t been “misinterpreting” anything. It’s a political weapon with which they can divert attention to a made up enemy to distract from their failings.
This the bread and butter tactic of capitalists and fascists. Blame immigrants, or the gays, or the Jews. Anyone but themselves.
Alright Z Posters, how do Ya`ll justify this?
Come on, you over there in Dongistan, tell me how Putin is "Based" And will help communism return to Russia?
Russian Nationalists infiltrating Marxist circles honestly is just annoying and I have zero tolerance on that.
I think I speak for most everyone when I say that this isn’t based, but marginally better than the Nazis that Ukraine brings into their ranks and radicalize other troops to accept Fascist-friendly brigades. Everyone here should criticize Russia in their many faults at the same time. That’s the beauty of the Dialectical Method, we can point out shortcomings and successes and address them as they are, not how we would like them to be.
if queer people in Russia take up arms to fight back, I'll support them even if it opens a window for imperialists to balkanize the region. they have as much a right to self-deterimination and life as anyone else.
Come on, you over there in Dongistan, tell me how Putin is "Based" And will help communism return to Russia?
No one says that, merely that they should be supported as an opponent of the imperial core
The Russian government can have reactionary positions when it comes to LGBT issues, and yet still be the main force in the world today killing nazis who would like nothing more than to wipe LGBT people off the face of the earth.
Should we stop critically supporting Gaza because they have anti-LGBT views also?
Russia isn’t being bombed back into the Stone Age by a ravaging imperialist power. They don’t deserve sympathy or excuses for takes like this.
Have you forgotten that the Donbas has been getting bombed by actual western funded nazis since 2014?
Is that Russia? How does the suffering of the people of Donbas influence the people of Kazan or Volgograd, or the Russian leadership into taking bizarre, disgusting, and reactionary decisions like this?
Is that Russia?
As recently as 1991 yes; Its up for them to decide and the consenus in the area has been Russian unification for a while now.
How does the suffering of the people of Donbas influence the people of Kazan or Volgograd, or the Russian leadership into taking bizarre, disgusting, and reactionary decisions like this?
How is occupying a position in the western hegemony, the one who is funding the needless slaughter of east ukraine justification for the uncoupling of support from the people that our governments are killing?
I think that if you sincerely want things to get better for LGBT+ comrades in Russia, which I do; it comes with the war stopping.
“Things to get better”
This law was passed this past week.
How does the death and destruction in the Donbas justify this reactionary policy? How will the war ending rectify this? Why would they not just continue down this reactionary path?
The law passed this week, 10 years into a war with the west.
No ones justifying anything, its a material analysis of the dialectics at play.
War enables right wing reactionary policies to flourish due to unity becoming the priority in the face of a percieved existenstial threat, as such its a given that the fastest route to the war ending is favourable for conditions improving.
And lastly, do you seriously think a forever war will be the better path?
A law that is built upon decades of rising hate and discrimination, this is just giving that a rubber stamp. It has been terrible for a while. Watch the Russian news, they speak about the community like vermin and pests.
Why am I to believe that the war ending would rectify this? Would that not invigorate those same right wing policies? They would be proven correct, and be seen as strong, giving them even more ground to build upon.
A law that is built upon decades of rising hate and discrimination, this is just giving that a rubber stamp. It has been terrible for a while. Watch the Russian news, they speak about the community like vermin and pests.
Thats why you need to trace this back to 1991, where the justification for this started. The USSR was actually starting to liberalize laws regarding LGBT+ people and I think they would have followed the same timeline as China/Cuba in modern times if that never happened. Thats why the ongoing war is connected to this, because the tensions created with the collapse of the USSR have never been resolved.
I fully agree with you, but that doesn’t answer the question. This is still an unjustifiable and disgusting reactionary path.
I agree with you comrade, my position is ceasefire and LGBT+ and communist liberation in Russia; I do see the war as degrading conditions and enabling this path, and I think the route out of it requires a ceasefire and concessions from Ukraine.
I truly hope you are right. I agree with your stance, but if we are truthful then all we can say is that only time will tell.
I also I didn’t mean to be hostile with you, this is just a very sore subject, and it’s painful when some people blindly push their “critical” support at any cost, which in this case might happen to be my life. You have not done that however, and I hope you have a good day comrade. Thanks for your responses.
Some of them literally are, and if NATO wins they will most likely got thrown in even worse nightmare than in 90's because right now natoids openly speaks about balkanisation, setting up warlords and genocide.
The Donbas is not Russian land, and that is entirely irrelevant to this situation.
I’m sure leaders in ivory towers discriminating against gay people in Moscow will help the people of Donbas best NATO! Wooo!
Donbas was Russian for centuries, and certainly wasn't Ukrainian, until Lenin intervened and told them to shut up when they didn't wanted to belong to Ukraine (rare but severe Lenin L), and even then only on paper since they tried to secede two or three times since.
And i don't even understand your point. If you want to be so blunt and reductive, you could say the same about Gaza where LGBT situation is not all roses too. Are we only supposed to support people below certain threshold of military power or numerical disadvantage? Why Russia is so much worse than Iran, DPRK or all other socially conservative countries which we do support more or less critically?
I’m sure leaders in ivory towers discriminating against gay people in Moscow will help the people of Donbas best NATO! Wooo!
It is precisely what is currently happening.
Imagine going out of your way to justify reactionary homophobic policies. Did you forget the entire fucking point of critical support?
Also it’s good to know that Donbas was Russian for centuries. To bad Lenin’s terrible decision can’t be changed on a dime, because that’s not how international law works.
Again, how is the suffering of the people of Donbas at all related to this situation? What the hell are you talking about? How will this help them? You’ve brought up something so bizarre irrelevant to try and justify this that it’s comical.
Also it’s good to know that Donbas was Russian for centuries. To bad Lenin’s terrible decision can’t be changed on a dime, because that’s not how international law works.
Lenin wanted self-determination of Ukraine, respecting that Donbass is 90% Russian and them wanting to secede and being stopped by nazi-death azov miltias with western bombs was what started this whole mess. The Donbas war is directly linked to the repression of LGBT+ people, you misunderstand the propoganda and rhetoric going on involved with this war.
Why do you think Zelensky, the president of a country that untill very recently banned LGBT+ people from existance was dressing in drag while Ukraine was bombing the donbass? Why do you think they apparently legalized gay marriage, yet have nazi battalions beating up and bombing lgbt+ meetings still? They want to spur a reaction in Russia, because in turn it poisons the well for western support like it clearly has done for you and others in this thread.
None of the concessions Ukraine made to LGBT+ comrades has been sincere, and it has been at the knowing expense of LGBT+ comrades in both Ukraine and Russia, the only way to even begin to undo this damage is to advocate for a ceasefire and normalization of conditions in the area.
Im happy to back up any of the claims I made with sources, they are not hyperbole.
How does Ukraine’s disgusting wrongs make this correct?
The topic of the Donbas is entirely irreverent here. How does that affect or justify Russia's domestic policies?
How is anything that i've said a justification for any of this?
I clearly do not support Russias stance on this, the war has to end for it to change; you cannot just ignore the biggest infulence on there attitudes, the war from this equation.
edit: re: first question
Because ukraines disgusting wrongs created this reactionary wave against the people with nazi flags bombing people they are related too, eastern ukraine is 90% ethnic russian; Ukrainian media adpoted pink capitalism as a facade while they bombed them, they have weaponized it and you blame the targets of the weapon for responding in reaction to the images and percieved ideas of the people who kill them.
My answer is that the fastest route towards lgbt+ liberation in russia still needs to be the war ending firstly.
You aren't even coherent now, i hope you're drunk or stoned because not only you are very aggressive but don't make any sense. I will block you for now.
Good way to ignore the topic.
I’m pissed that people like you run to support Russia’s reactionary domestic policies at the drop of a hat, then try to divert the topic by talking about Donbas.
You never answered the question. How does this help the people of Donbas?
I gave you a very in detail explanation as to why this has happened, asking how this helps anyone is honestly a bad faith question; no one is suggesting these actions against LGBT+ people help anyone, we are saying that if they are to be reversed the war has to stop, as it is the primary driver of these laws being enacted.
It is not a support of Russians actions against LGBT+ people, it is a support of the working class in Donbas; we are killing them, we should stop that if we want them to share our social values.
I agree with you somewhat. But Poland has offered no such analysis, then deflected with the topic of the Donbas. I posed that question to him because I found using the suffering of the Donbas as a cover and justification was vile.
And who is “we” in this situation? Despite having travelled and lived between America and Russia, along with some of the west I do not identify with that. I am Belarusian by blood and have lived in Russia for years. That’s why I despise this, and now fear for my life. I have already faced hate crimes and discrimination, and been disowned by much of my family for being LGBT.
I cannot support this country and risk my life for the “hope” it’ll get better after the war.
This isn’t the example of the Middle East, lgbt acceptance used to be much higher during the Union years, peaking in the 70’s and early 80’s, with the collapse of the Union this changed. Putin’s government has only made it worse by using the community as a scapegoat. Rates of suicide, depression, lgbt people fleeing the country have all skyrocketed in the community. It has been made purposefully difficult to get treatment for HIV/AIDS, and lgbt people are treated like sex offenders.
Why should I support this? It’s difficult to march forward in support of the Donbass when my own life is put in extreme risk.
And who is “we” in this situation? Despite having travelled and lived between America and Russia, along with some of the west I do not identify with that. I am Belarusian by blood and have lived in Russia for years. That’s why I despise this, and now fear for my life. I have already faced hate crimes and discrimination, and been disowned by much of my family for being LGBT.
Im from the UK, so apologies, but when I say 'we' I do quite literally mean my own country lol; I accept this is a less relevant criticism for you.
I cannot support this country and risk my life for the “hope” it’ll get better after the war.
I dont support Russia either, its a neo-liberal country. I do support the working class in Russia, and the working class in Ukraine; I recongise the real war ongoing in east ukraine since 2014 and the real grievances of them and I think in an alt world where we where friendly to Russia/the USSR and it didnt collapse LGBT+ people would be in a much better position in Ukraine and Russia.
Wtf is Dongistan? I can't keep up with all these online splinter groups
sometimes they slip through the cracks and people like pepe escobar is mentioned here. i want to believe that people are unaware of that
It's possible to both recognize how a state (Russia, Iran) can occupy an anti-imperialist position due to their circumstances and also recognize that they have seriously bigoted domestic politics.
