Lmao not voting for Genocide Joe no matter how much the 🥂 wine cave warriors will shame anyone. This sort of meme is fucking gross to all the people suffering from Biden continuing all Trumps worst policies and liberals doing zero to fight against more fascist policies and support for genocide in Palestine.
They can earn our vote by literally doing ANYTHING that actually materially benefits marginalized people or workers. So far they have nothing.
I agree, none of it is enough, and honestly he probably does too. You can guess that based on other things he's tried to do and been stopped, like student loan relief. That's a great example because while it was blocked by Republicans, he's been taking other avenues to get some out there at least. That demonstrates it's not just demonstrative efforts, which is a popular argument when that kinda thing happens.
But I get it. I'm no big fan of Biden myself. Then again, you didn't say he's not doing enough. You said "literally ANYTHING". It's right there in your comment and quoted at the top of this one.
Now since we've demonstrated he's done more than literally anything, were you uninformed and will now change your stance, or were you a liar? If you were a liar did you already know that he'd done those things, or are you just not willing to stick to the criteria you yourself established?
Anything of material consequence this is the difference between liberals and communists. You think bourgeois politicians act in good faith or have your actual material interests at heart. You have a purely aesthetics understanding of politics.
Even if he actually did any of that in the way you think he did and I somehow benefitted from those things, I still wouldn't vote for him because you can't buy my vote with all the material appeals in the world if it means being complicit with genocide in return for table scraps. Fuck you and everyone like you. Wake the fuck up.
Neither does mine, I just can't help but see people say shit like you and be disgusted by it and every now and then I will call one of you out and you all react the same way. You can't actually tell me what your "good work fighting for Real Change I Can Affect (TM)" or in other words useless electoral politics once every four years, has accomplished MATERIALLY.
And I am sure you are a good voter that makes Informed Decisions. Maybe you even vote in primaries. Great! If so I applaud you, you are on the path to learning how futile bourgeois electoralism is (which based on your response I doubt) or (and I feel this seems more likely based on the evidence available) you just don't have any fuckin skin in the game and feel comfortable smugly trying to shame people into supporting someone that actively hates them and seeks to destroy their communities and movements through actions no matter his words.
Biden wants us fucking dead, indigenous people, communists, LGBTQ people, immigrants, etc.
The man is a sex pest, a segregationist, and a genocidal imperialist. If you can't see how twisted it is to beg people to vote for that man instead of demanding better from the so-called "lesser evil" then you aren't as morally superior as you think you are.
You also listed the fact he increased funding for fascist police who protect the fascists attacking drag shows etc. So if you actually cared about vulnerable groups in the US you would be threatening to withhold your vote too, but as I said you have no skin in the game, your politics is purely vibes based and idealist.
Demanding people that are actually laying their lives on the line to actually FIGHT for the things you profess to care about, vote for a man that would sooner have them dead than capitulate with our demands, you display a stunning amount of privilege and lack of ever having risked anything yourself for REAL change.
Please tell my friends on the reservations, or my friends living in their cars, or the ones getting arrested for speaking out against US support for genocide, or being brutalized for protesting pipeline constructions, or protesting against bigger more robust training facilities to put down said movements, tell all those people how they have to vote for Joe Biden, go tell it to their face and come back to me.
Wake up. People are dying RIGHT NOW WHILE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.
Let's take care of some housekeeping first, since I'm not going to goaded into continuing a variety of conversation chains. It is not my democracy. If you're eligible to vote in California it is our democracy. I didn't make it or choose it any more than you did. We live in the same country and are bound by the same government with the same system.
Moving on to the comment this one replies to...
I just can't help but see people say shit like you and be disgusted by it and every now and then I will call one of you out and you all react the same way.
Is it because you're using the same arguments each time? There's a common phrase about the definition of insanity you may want to look up if so.
You can't actually tell me what your "good work fighting for Real Change I Can Affect (TM)"
Ah, a common tactic. You're uncomfortable with the direction the conversation has been taking so you're trying to shift focus to me. That's one problem. See it wasn't on me to tell you what that is, I asked you what ideas you had that would be feasible. You haven't done that. This whole conversation isn't about me or what I do. Realistically I doubt you would believe me if I told you as you seem to have presupposed a lot about me already.
or in other words useless electoral politics once every four years, has accomplished MATERIALLY.
I definitely can't tell you a thing when you continue to refuse to define how you're using a term, caps regardless. Materially has a few different definitions but at its core it's generally "of value". That's the general idea I assumed in the first place and provided you things accordingly. You dismissed them and did not elaborate, only stressed words.
And I am sure you are a good voter that makes Informed Decisions. Maybe you even vote in primaries. Great! If so I applaud you
Thanks! I bet that was hard for you to say.
you are on the path to learning how futile bourgeois electoralism is
Ah, no, see I did that a long time ago. The thing is there's not one path through any part of life. Just because you have dismissed a way of thinking you now attribute to me doesn't mean that you're ahead somehow.
It's also amusing you keep reusing the same big words, but I digress.
(which based on your response I doubt) or (and I feel this seems more likely based on the evidence available) you just don't have any fuckin skin in the game and feel comfortable smugly trying to shame people into supporting someone
The only thing I tried to shame you for was being a liar. You said Biden could earn your vote and later said you'd never vote for him. You said an untrue thing, that makes you a liar.
that actively hates them and seeks to destroy their communities and movements through actions no matter his words.
Which actions?
Biden wants us fucking dead, indigenous people, communists, LGBTQ people, immigrants, etc.
The man is a sex pest, a segregationist, and a genocidal imperialist.
You're thinking of the other guy. It's true Biden did some shitty things in his too long career in government but dollars to donuts you're a different person today than you were 20 years ago. That doesn't excuse shitty behavior, but it makes a lot more sense to judge someone based on their current action when they don't agree with the ones of the past, wouldn't you agree?
And none of that is to indicate there's no problems with Biden as that's simply untrue. I get the impression you think I'm some kind of big Biden booster. That's silly.
If you can't see how twisted it is to beg people to vote for that man
Where did I beg anyone to vote for him? You said you'd vote for him under certain circumstances, I exposed that those circumstances exist under my understanding of your continually undefined terminology.
instead of demanding better from the so-called "lesser evil"
What have I done in my life to demand better? Do you know? Of course not! You've exchanged a couple messages with me. You have no idea what efforts I've made to demand better, or continue to make. Just because I don't think taking my ball and going home instead of participating in whatever minimal way I have is one doesn't mean I've done nothing.
You also listed the fact he increased funding for fascist police who protect the fascists attacking drag shows etc.
Nope. I may have listed a bill that included such things, but you can see my reasons for listing them in my comment. You are aware that political action in our broken, corrupt system often includes shit with important, useful things, right?
So if you actually cared about vulnerable groups in the US you would be threatening to withhold your vote too
Because if I think a thing, or feel a thing important the only possible action is the one you do? If your vote doesn't matter what is withholding it going to do?
but as I said you have no skin in the game
You did, again without knowledge of me or what so called skin I may have in the proverbial game.
your politics is purely vibes based and idealist.
More assumptions about me.
Demanding people that are actually laying their lives on the line to actually FIGHT for the things you profess to care about
What demands have I made? What fights have I fought?
vote for a man that would sooner have them dead than capitulate with our demands
Based on what?
you display a stunning amount of privilege and lack of ever having risked anything yourself for REAL change.
I don't know that the amount of privilege I have is "stunning". Extant definitely but hardly stunning.
And again you assume I've never risked anything for any real change. You assume this based on a few paragraphs of text.
Please tell my friends on the reservations, or my friends living in their cars, or the ones getting arrested for speaking out against US support for genocide, or being brutalized for protesting pipeline constructions, or protesting against bigger more robust training facilities
Fun fact, if I were your friend (and so far I think I'm pretty happy I'm not) I'd have been eligible to be on that list in the past. Hell, there was a time in my life that being in one of those categories would have been an improvement for me.
But that probably doesn't fit well with the image of me you've created for yourself. Maybe you'll insist I'm lying.
to put down said movements
Why would I do that? Wait, do you think people who vote all just collectively dust off their hands and go "I did my part, time to get back to the business factory and ignore any other problems in the world"?
tell all those people how they have to vote for Joe Biden, go tell it to their face and come back to me.
Why? There's probably a few of them that already did and may again. If you act with them the way you do here I definitely wouldn't fault them for not telling you. If they don't that's their business. I think it's a bit short sighted, but I'm not campaigning for the guy. You said some stupid shit and I called you out on it. The rest of this has just been absurdity.
Wake up. People are dying RIGHT NOW WHILE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.
Italics and bold are right there, your caps are tiresome.
Yes, people are dying right now. They will be dying next year and the year after. If we all installed your idea of the best possible option as a president they'd die under them too. Some of them would even be that person's fault.
This is part of why you get the same things back all the time. You have rhetoric full of youthful idealism. Maybe you're youthful, maybe you're not. That doesn't really matter.
The point is the world is a flawed, fucked up mess. It's full of imperfect people, many of which more interested in their own advancement than the well being of others. This time next year either a Democrat or a Republican will be elected as the president for 2025-2029. If it's a Democrat things will be somewhat less shitty for a lot the people you want to think I don't care about. That's demonstrable for quite a while. Back to Reagan at least.
What you don't seem to get is that I can help the ones I have access to, but have very little I can do for all the rest. What I can do is a mostly symbolic but in an unlikely but not impossible scenario incredibly useful effort to put a president that might do any amount of good for them.
You've also got it twisted. By and large Democrats don't care about a very large part of the population, sure, but they're not actively seeking to kill them. That's the Republicans. They die through inaction or blocked action.
You, however, are playing right into the hands of the Republicans. Attacking those who would be your allies. It's just like the people who complain that a higher minimum wage would mean unskilled laborers would make too close to what they make, not understanding they aren't fairly paid either.
Instead you try to drag me to a different post where you think you'll have back up by putting words into my mouth and assigning me positions that I don't hold. Even if you had followed your own instances rules and it hadn't been taken down it wouldn't have worked. I'm not interested in debating you or anyone "dunking" on anyone else. You made a statement and I called you on it. You were a liar and I pointed it out. If you don't like it, don't lie. Fuck, a "Maybe" at the front of a statement and this whole exchange may never have happened and I might not know you're the kind of person to call someone a "fucking coward" because they went to sleep instead of hanging around to have a pointless conversation.
And it has been pointless. I'm not going to continue after this as I've found nothing of value in it, and I sincerely doubt you have either.
Really because in the last day you've written 4 page long essays as responses arguing abaout literally everything except why you should be accountable for the consequences of the policies you support.
Which he's done. Ask one of the people who were pardoned from their federal possession charges, or received student loan relief. If those aren't material consequence you'll need to more clearly define what you mean by the term.
this is the difference between liberals and communists.
So you understand neither term
You think bourgeois politicians act in good faith or have your actual material interests at heart.
Where did I say that? I said he has backed up his intent for student loan relief with action even when meeting resistance.
You have a purely aesthetics understanding of politics.
Says the guy who has one comment and knows my outlook on all political matters
Even if he actually did any of that in the way you think he did and I somehow benefitted from those things, I still wouldn't vote for him
So you're a liar. I had need of a lawyer once and he told me it was fine if I didn't remember something and said so. It wasn't ok if I said something happened one way and it didn't because then I was a liar and he couldn't help anymore. You devalue your own words. You'd do well to think on that beyond any assumptions about my feelings on our legal system.
with all the material appeals in the world if it means being complicit with genocide in return for table scraps.
Then don't claim that it can be done. I'm also interested in what your viable suggestions for better with the tools we have are. That appears to be the difference between you and I. I'm interested in what change can actually happen to improve people's lives. It looks a whole lot like you want to move immediately into "no bad things". Letting perfect be the enemy of good.
Fuck you and everyone like you
And that's a big reason you'll get exactly nowhere. Name me a person who has enacted major change for their people without working with someone who they disagreed with and I'll reconsider.
So look, I’m all for a complete revamp of this trash electoral system and the shitty “government” it allegedly controls, but until we have a unified movement of hundreds of millions of people behind that, it isn’t happening without years of instability and many failed attempts.
I admit that my vote for Biden is a portion of the reason Biden’s in office, and Biden being in office is a portion of the reason the USA is funding genocide. No I’m not fucking proud of it.
What’s the viable AND better alternative to Biden in 2024?
Withholding your vote is the only way to push the democrats left. Otherwise they know you're their little piggies who'll lick their heels and vote for them just because they're not Republicans despite the growing lack of material difference. You're their subs. Make them either work earn your vote or perish. Don't you see the pattern occurring again and again since Clinton? The dems move right and hold try to hold the left hostage with the Republicans as a threat. Things were pretty much the same under Trump as Biden, don't be a coward and hold your party accountable. They don't deserve your vote for being better than Trump.
Edit: also, die in a house fire you annoying little dweeb
It absolutely sucks but voting locally is a way you can improve your ability to vote. Incremental improvements towards leftist policies at the local level will sway more people to leftist policies, resulting in greater support overall towards the left.
Just because there isn't a better option doesn't mean you have to choose a bad option that's literally the deffinition of the illusion of choice.
If somebody told me theybwere either going to slap me in the face or kick me in the balls and I said "what about I pick neither of those things" would you also show up to smugly lecture me
Especially if I was using the time to do things that would actually protect people from the consequences like setting up communal support structures to get together and make sure nobody gets slapped or kicked
Okay, are you using your time to set up communal support structures for people? Or are you just using the amount of time you save by not voting (which is generally 5 minutes saved for every 12 months lived) to do that?
Also, voting for Biden is like getting punched in the face. Voting for Trump is like getting punched in the face and having your right to vote for anything (face punches or any possible alternative) revoked. Not voting for either is like saying “eh, they’re both just the same to me”
You dipshits realize you sound dumb as hell when you say that if Trump gets elected nobody will vote again right.
You said the exact same thing last time and then somehow managed to lose an election to him thanks to brilliant electoral strategies like not campaigning in keybstates and then he was voted out 4 years later.
Also I am not going to be lectured on how effective or thorough my communal support systems are by some dumbshit lib lecturing me on how important it is to vote for a Democrat presidential candidate as a resident of New York.
If Jesus Christ came down waving a black and red flag it would still be a waste of time to vote in federal elections, let alone taking time out of my day to do it for somebody actively carrying out a genocide.
I didn’t say anything about the effectiveness of the communal support structures you mentioned. I think spending time putting effort into that is extremely valuable and important.
You said that if you didn’t waste time voting you’d have more time to put your efforts into communal support structures so I challenged you on that and you didn’t respond to that challenge.
So again I ask: do you put your time into developing or reinforcing communal support structures for other people?
I do not but I consider that a failure on my own part. I’ve been looking for ways I can help my community which won’t burn me out quickly on top of my dreary job.
I understand being angry about the state of American politics but I don’t understand why you’re venting your anger at me. I’ve been continuing this conversation because I legitimately would like to understand your point of view and potentially be persuaded.
Because for somebody who wants to understand my point of view you sure are spending a lot of time writing replies after I explicitly stated it three times.
Electoralism is pointless at anything above a county level, national democrats aren't any better than Republicans, and even if they were the chances of them learning how to stop enthusiastically jumping on rakes is slim. You've done more to reduce human suffering by giving a homeless person a dollar than any kind of electoralism the DNC wouldn't immediatly put out a statement condemning.
Yes, no duh, but I mean options that are practical for me to do until other people finally agree to organize/unionize and make everything better for each other
I have a single vote that I can use in the 2024 presidential election. There are two ways that vote can go. One is a vote for the funding of the extermination of the Palestinian people, and the other is a vote for the funding of the extermination of the Palestinian people AND the extermination of whatever shred of American democracy there is left.
Tell me, is there some other way I can use my vote that has a good chance of making a difference or are we all just as fucked as it seems like we are?
There aren't any shreds of American democracy and there never have been. I don't know what country you live in, but I'm an American and we've never had democracy here.
I personally am far from saying there is no harm in voting for Biden, but because of your comment I have to ask you: what harm is there in voting for Biden if there is no shred of democracy in the USA?
Well let's see since the last election when we were told we had to vote for Biden or else we'd lose abortion, trans people would have rights stripped and we'd stop doing covid relief we elected Biden and then all those things happened and we started doing the worse genocide of a generation.
Dems keep insisting they're the lesser of two evils but then completely fail to prevent the greater evil when given power electorally.
This meme and this thread is not about local elections. Yes every serious communist participates in local elections (when there is something real to vote for)
You were faulting Biden’s election for the abolition of abortion and the removal of trans rights when I’m pretty sure those are both indirect results of Trump being elected. Trump gave conservatives a majority hold in the supreme court which overturned Roe v. Wade, and the emboldening and legitimizing of radical right-wing politicians led to the increased removal of trans rights.
What did you expect Biden to do to stop either of those things? I’m not defending the atrocities Biden has done and supports, but fault him for the correct things, not things that Trump caused.
Yea I'm in New York state so unless I ball up my ballot and throw it at Biden so hard he dies my vote will literally have zero effect on the outcome.
So I vote for whoever is running against Steffanick isf they aren't a genocidal lib (they usually get about 12% of the vote, showing the likelihood of a good person ever actually getting elected) and then vote for whoever doesn't want to get rid of public education for local elections but that's usually somebodys aunt who agreed to run so a Maga lunatic can't eliminate school lunches and bus routes.
But check this out, none of those people have the ability, intention, or motivation to help murder thousands of innocent Palestinians.
It's actually not hard to not support genocide, unless you're a lib of course.
You could vote for somebody who doesn't support genocie and vocally declare you won't vote for anybody doing a genocide until the dems run somebody who doesn't do genocide.
I know not actively supporting genocide is an unreasonable bar for liberals but you asked.
Biden and Trump are equally evil and either of them being president is a disaster for the world. They're exactly the same in terms of political outcome and I'm never issuing support for either, both are imperialist and responsible for genocide. I'm never voting for either, even if it would simply be ceremonial.
And don't even come with me with I'll be responsible for Trump then. I don't care. I do not see any difference between the two. I live in Texas anyway so my presidential vote simply doesn't matter.
The only difference I've seen between Trump and Biden is now that Biden is president libs scream at progressives to stop complaining because it makes them look bad.
Well that and when republican was president dems said tou had tonvote for them or else we'd lose abortion access, transgender people would lose rights, and covid would run rampant.
So we all voted for Biden and now there's no abortion protection, Trans people are loosing rights, we ignored the oandemic and cut all relief efforts, and now we're supporting and funding the worst genocide in a generation.
If you're going to argue you're the lesser of two evils you might want to try being less evil.
When Trump was president Pelosi was dressing up in fucking African garments pretending to support those ideas.
Bidens president and they're all voting to establish that criticizing Isreal is antisemitism.
Rank and file liberals are literally worse under a democratic president.
Not gonna get that by rolling over for the democrats as they continue to become more and more right wing. Your support is part of the problem. You wanna move a party left? Deny them power until they do or why would they bother? They already have your support even if you hate them. You're their sub
Lmao not voting for Genocide Joe no matter how much the
🥂 
wine cave warriors will shame anyone. This sort of meme is fucking gross to all the people suffering from Biden continuing all Trumps worst policies and liberals doing zero to fight against more fascist policies and support for genocide in Palestine.
They can earn our vote by literally doing ANYTHING that actually materially benefits marginalized people or workers. So far they have nothing.
You mean like gun safety legislation (biggest in 30 years which unfortunately doesn't say much), inflation reduction and infrastructure measures, repealing DOMA, or taking steps against systemic racism?
I agree, none of it is enough, and honestly he probably does too. You can guess that based on other things he's tried to do and been stopped, like student loan relief. That's a great example because while it was blocked by Republicans, he's been taking other avenues to get some out there at least. That demonstrates it's not just demonstrative efforts, which is a popular argument when that kinda thing happens.
But I get it. I'm no big fan of Biden myself. Then again, you didn't say he's not doing enough. You said "literally ANYTHING". It's right there in your comment and quoted at the top of this one.
Now since we've demonstrated he's done more than literally anything, were you uninformed and will now change your stance, or were you a liar? If you were a liar did you already know that he'd done those things, or are you just not willing to stick to the criteria you yourself established?
Anything of material consequence this is the difference between liberals and communists. You think bourgeois politicians act in good faith or have your actual material interests at heart. You have a purely aesthetics understanding of politics.
Even if he actually did any of that in the way you think he did and I somehow benefitted from those things, I still wouldn't vote for him because you can't buy my vote with all the material appeals in the world if it means being complicit with genocide in return for table scraps. Fuck you and everyone like you. Wake the fuck up.
@Doug@midwest.social Answer me you fucking coward.
My life doesn't revolve around you or this site. I'll respond to things when I see them. I'm sorry if this is all you have going for you.
Neither does mine, I just can't help but see people say shit like you and be disgusted by it and every now and then I will call one of you out and you all react the same way. You can't actually tell me what your "good work fighting for Real Change I Can Affect (TM)" or in other words useless electoral politics once every four years, has accomplished MATERIALLY.
And I am sure you are a good voter that makes Informed Decisions. Maybe you even vote in primaries. Great! If so I applaud you, you are on the path to learning how futile bourgeois electoralism is (which based on your response I doubt) or (and I feel this seems more likely based on the evidence available) you just don't have any fuckin skin in the game and feel comfortable smugly trying to shame people into supporting someone that actively hates them and seeks to destroy their communities and movements through actions no matter his words.
Biden wants us fucking dead, indigenous people, communists, LGBTQ people, immigrants, etc.
The man is a sex pest, a segregationist, and a genocidal imperialist. If you can't see how twisted it is to beg people to vote for that man instead of demanding better from the so-called "lesser evil" then you aren't as morally superior as you think you are.
You also listed the fact he increased funding for fascist police who protect the fascists attacking drag shows etc. So if you actually cared about vulnerable groups in the US you would be threatening to withhold your vote too, but as I said you have no skin in the game, your politics is purely vibes based and idealist.
Demanding people that are actually laying their lives on the line to actually FIGHT for the things you profess to care about, vote for a man that would sooner have them dead than capitulate with our demands, you display a stunning amount of privilege and lack of ever having risked anything yourself for REAL change.
Please tell my friends on the reservations, or my friends living in their cars, or the ones getting arrested for speaking out against US support for genocide, or being brutalized for protesting pipeline constructions, or protesting against bigger more robust training facilities to put down said movements, tell all those people how they have to vote for Joe Biden, go tell it to their face and come back to me.
Wake up. People are dying RIGHT NOW WHILE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.
I just wanna thank you Nakoichi because you are one of the most powerful posters I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing
Let's take care of some housekeeping first, since I'm not going to goaded into continuing a variety of conversation chains. It is not my democracy. If you're eligible to vote in California it is our democracy. I didn't make it or choose it any more than you did. We live in the same country and are bound by the same government with the same system.
Moving on to the comment this one replies to...
Is it because you're using the same arguments each time? There's a common phrase about the definition of insanity you may want to look up if so.
Ah, a common tactic. You're uncomfortable with the direction the conversation has been taking so you're trying to shift focus to me. That's one problem. See it wasn't on me to tell you what that is, I asked you what ideas you had that would be feasible. You haven't done that. This whole conversation isn't about me or what I do. Realistically I doubt you would believe me if I told you as you seem to have presupposed a lot about me already.
I definitely can't tell you a thing when you continue to refuse to define how you're using a term, caps regardless. Materially has a few different definitions but at its core it's generally "of value". That's the general idea I assumed in the first place and provided you things accordingly. You dismissed them and did not elaborate, only stressed words.
Thanks! I bet that was hard for you to say.
Ah, no, see I did that a long time ago. The thing is there's not one path through any part of life. Just because you have dismissed a way of thinking you now attribute to me doesn't mean that you're ahead somehow.
It's also amusing you keep reusing the same big words, but I digress.
The only thing I tried to shame you for was being a liar. You said Biden could earn your vote and later said you'd never vote for him. You said an untrue thing, that makes you a liar.
Which actions?
The man is a sex pest, a segregationist, and a genocidal imperialist.
You're thinking of the other guy. It's true Biden did some shitty things in his too long career in government but dollars to donuts you're a different person today than you were 20 years ago. That doesn't excuse shitty behavior, but it makes a lot more sense to judge someone based on their current action when they don't agree with the ones of the past, wouldn't you agree?
And none of that is to indicate there's no problems with Biden as that's simply untrue. I get the impression you think I'm some kind of big Biden booster. That's silly.
Where did I beg anyone to vote for him? You said you'd vote for him under certain circumstances, I exposed that those circumstances exist under my understanding of your continually undefined terminology.
What have I done in my life to demand better? Do you know? Of course not! You've exchanged a couple messages with me. You have no idea what efforts I've made to demand better, or continue to make. Just because I don't think taking my ball and going home instead of participating in whatever minimal way I have is one doesn't mean I've done nothing.
Nope. I may have listed a bill that included such things, but you can see my reasons for listing them in my comment. You are aware that political action in our broken, corrupt system often includes shit with important, useful things, right?
Because if I think a thing, or feel a thing important the only possible action is the one you do? If your vote doesn't matter what is withholding it going to do?
You did, again without knowledge of me or what so called skin I may have in the proverbial game.
More assumptions about me.
What demands have I made? What fights have I fought?
Based on what?
I don't know that the amount of privilege I have is "stunning". Extant definitely but hardly stunning.
And again you assume I've never risked anything for any real change. You assume this based on a few paragraphs of text.
Fun fact, if I were your friend (and so far I think I'm pretty happy I'm not) I'd have been eligible to be on that list in the past. Hell, there was a time in my life that being in one of those categories would have been an improvement for me.
But that probably doesn't fit well with the image of me you've created for yourself. Maybe you'll insist I'm lying.
Why would I do that? Wait, do you think people who vote all just collectively dust off their hands and go "I did my part, time to get back to the business factory and ignore any other problems in the world"?
Why? There's probably a few of them that already did and may again. If you act with them the way you do here I definitely wouldn't fault them for not telling you. If they don't that's their business. I think it's a bit short sighted, but I'm not campaigning for the guy. You said some stupid shit and I called you out on it. The rest of this has just been absurdity.
Italics and bold are right there, your caps are tiresome.
Yes, people are dying right now. They will be dying next year and the year after. If we all installed your idea of the best possible option as a president they'd die under them too. Some of them would even be that person's fault.
This is part of why you get the same things back all the time. You have rhetoric full of youthful idealism. Maybe you're youthful, maybe you're not. That doesn't really matter.
The point is the world is a flawed, fucked up mess. It's full of imperfect people, many of which more interested in their own advancement than the well being of others. This time next year either a Democrat or a Republican will be elected as the president for 2025-2029. If it's a Democrat things will be somewhat less shitty for a lot the people you want to think I don't care about. That's demonstrable for quite a while. Back to Reagan at least.
What you don't seem to get is that I can help the ones I have access to, but have very little I can do for all the rest. What I can do is a mostly symbolic but in an unlikely but not impossible scenario incredibly useful effort to put a president that might do any amount of good for them.
You've also got it twisted. By and large Democrats don't care about a very large part of the population, sure, but they're not actively seeking to kill them. That's the Republicans. They die through inaction or blocked action.
You, however, are playing right into the hands of the Republicans. Attacking those who would be your allies. It's just like the people who complain that a higher minimum wage would mean unskilled laborers would make too close to what they make, not understanding they aren't fairly paid either.
Instead you try to drag me to a different post where you think you'll have back up by putting words into my mouth and assigning me positions that I don't hold. Even if you had followed your own instances rules and it hadn't been taken down it wouldn't have worked. I'm not interested in debating you or anyone "dunking" on anyone else. You made a statement and I called you on it. You were a liar and I pointed it out. If you don't like it, don't lie. Fuck, a "Maybe" at the front of a statement and this whole exchange may never have happened and I might not know you're the kind of person to call someone a "fucking coward" because they went to sleep instead of hanging around to have a pointless conversation.
And it has been pointless. I'm not going to continue after this as I've found nothing of value in it, and I sincerely doubt you have either.
But you really should.
You're such a dweeb
Really because in the last day you've written 4 page long essays as responses arguing abaout literally everything except why you should be accountable for the consequences of the policies you support.
Reply to me right now too. Do you like Digimon?
Which he's done. Ask one of the people who were pardoned from their federal possession charges, or received student loan relief. If those aren't material consequence you'll need to more clearly define what you mean by the term.
So you understand neither term
Where did I say that? I said he has backed up his intent for student loan relief with action even when meeting resistance.
Says the guy who has one comment and knows my outlook on all political matters
So you're a liar. I had need of a lawyer once and he told me it was fine if I didn't remember something and said so. It wasn't ok if I said something happened one way and it didn't because then I was a liar and he couldn't help anymore. You devalue your own words. You'd do well to think on that beyond any assumptions about my feelings on our legal system.
Then don't claim that it can be done. I'm also interested in what your viable suggestions for better with the tools we have are. That appears to be the difference between you and I. I'm interested in what change can actually happen to improve people's lives. It looks a whole lot like you want to move immediately into "no bad things". Letting perfect be the enemy of good.
And that's a big reason you'll get exactly nowhere. Name me a person who has enacted major change for their people without working with someone who they disagreed with and I'll reconsider.
Likewise
How do you write such long posts that say NOTHING of value, this shit is pathetic
Just smarmy smug Reddit shit
Nerd
Imagine listing more tools and money for fascist cops as a good thing lmao.
Who would you vote for? What would doing so accomplish?
Right back at ya bud. Now you are getting it.
So look, I’m all for a complete revamp of this trash electoral system and the shitty “government” it allegedly controls, but until we have a unified movement of hundreds of millions of people behind that, it isn’t happening without years of instability and many failed attempts.
So yes, I’ll vote for the lesser of two evils.
Ok genocide enjoyer
You’ve never chosen the lesser of two evils because you didn’t have any other practical options?
Ok genocide enjoyer
Oh, in that case you’ve convinced me. Solid point, and well-articulated at that.
— _ —
Nobody's trying to convince you, we're several decades past expecting liberals to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
I admit that my vote for Biden is a portion of the reason Biden’s in office, and Biden being in office is a portion of the reason the USA is funding genocide. No I’m not fucking proud of it.
What’s the viable AND better alternative to Biden in 2024?
Don't vote
How is that better?
The results are the same but you don't have to do an extra errand that day. With the time saved you could watch like 3 episodes of star trek
Voting takes me 5 minutes, especially since I get my ballot in the mail.
I guess Star Trek episodes are a lot shorter than I thought
Withholding your vote is the only way to push the democrats left. Otherwise they know you're their little piggies who'll lick their heels and vote for them just because they're not Republicans despite the growing lack of material difference. You're their subs. Make them either work earn your vote or perish. Don't you see the pattern occurring again and again since Clinton? The dems move right and hold try to hold the left hostage with the Republicans as a threat. Things were pretty much the same under Trump as Biden, don't be a coward and hold your party accountable. They don't deserve your vote for being better than Trump.
Edit: also, die in a house fire you annoying little dweeb
How I feel like every VBNMW nerd in this thread.
Voting takes me several hours out of work. Work that I need to do to keep my roof and lights on, it also eats into actual direct action work I do IRL.
Voting is fucking worthless except if there is some exceptionally cool local city council person or w/e to vote for.
It absolutely sucks but voting locally is a way you can improve your ability to vote. Incremental improvements towards leftist policies at the local level will sway more people to leftist policies, resulting in greater support overall towards the left.
Yes and this is not about voting locally its about not voting for a genocidal monster.
Just because there isn't a better option doesn't mean you have to choose a bad option that's literally the deffinition of the illusion of choice.
If somebody told me theybwere either going to slap me in the face or kick me in the balls and I said "what about I pick neither of those things" would you also show up to smugly lecture me
Especially if I was using the time to do things that would actually protect people from the consequences like setting up communal support structures to get together and make sure nobody gets slapped or kicked
Okay, are you using your time to set up communal support structures for people? Or are you just using the amount of time you save by not voting (which is generally 5 minutes saved for every 12 months lived) to do that?
Also, voting for Biden is like getting punched in the face. Voting for Trump is like getting punched in the face and having your right to vote for anything (face punches or any possible alternative) revoked. Not voting for either is like saying “eh, they’re both just the same to me”
You dipshits realize you sound dumb as hell when you say that if Trump gets elected nobody will vote again right.
You said the exact same thing last time and then somehow managed to lose an election to him thanks to brilliant electoral strategies like not campaigning in keybstates and then he was voted out 4 years later.
Also I am not going to be lectured on how effective or thorough my communal support systems are by some dumbshit lib lecturing me on how important it is to vote for a Democrat presidential candidate as a resident of New York.
If Jesus Christ came down waving a black and red flag it would still be a waste of time to vote in federal elections, let alone taking time out of my day to do it for somebody actively carrying out a genocide.
I didn’t say anything about the effectiveness of the communal support structures you mentioned. I think spending time putting effort into that is extremely valuable and important.
You said that if you didn’t waste time voting you’d have more time to put your efforts into communal support structures so I challenged you on that and you didn’t respond to that challenge.
So again I ask: do you put your time into developing or reinforcing communal support structures for other people?
I do not but I consider that a failure on my own part. I’ve been looking for ways I can help my community which won’t burn me out quickly on top of my dreary job.
Fuck off nerd go pearl clutch elsewhere.
I'm saying take all the effort and time you would waste worrying about the futility of electoral politics and go organize a food drive.
I understand being angry about the state of American politics but I don’t understand why you’re venting your anger at me. I’ve been continuing this conversation because I legitimately would like to understand your point of view and potentially be persuaded.
Because for somebody who wants to understand my point of view you sure are spending a lot of time writing replies after I explicitly stated it three times.
Electoralism is pointless at anything above a county level, national democrats aren't any better than Republicans, and even if they were the chances of them learning how to stop enthusiastically jumping on rakes is slim. You've done more to reduce human suffering by giving a homeless person a dollar than any kind of electoralism the DNC wouldn't immediatly put out a statement condemning.
🤓
There are, in fact, other practical options
Yes, no duh, but I mean options that are practical for me to do until other people finally agree to organize/unionize and make everything better for each other
Not voting for the extermination of the Palestinian people is a good compromise measure until then
I have a single vote that I can use in the 2024 presidential election. There are two ways that vote can go. One is a vote for the funding of the extermination of the Palestinian people, and the other is a vote for the funding of the extermination of the Palestinian people AND the extermination of whatever shred of American democracy there is left.
Tell me, is there some other way I can use my vote that has a good chance of making a difference or are we all just as fucked as it seems like we are?
There aren't any shreds of American democracy and there never have been. I don't know what country you live in, but I'm an American and we've never had democracy here.
I personally am far from saying there is no harm in voting for Biden, but because of your comment I have to ask you: what harm is there in voting for Biden if there is no shred of democracy in the USA?
Well let's see since the last election when we were told we had to vote for Biden or else we'd lose abortion, trans people would have rights stripped and we'd stop doing covid relief we elected Biden and then all those things happened and we started doing the worse genocide of a generation.
Dems keep insisting they're the lesser of two evils but then completely fail to prevent the greater evil when given power electorally.
Do you vote in local elections?
This meme and this thread is not about local elections. Yes every serious communist participates in local elections (when there is something real to vote for)
You were faulting Biden’s election for the abolition of abortion and the removal of trans rights when I’m pretty sure those are both indirect results of Trump being elected. Trump gave conservatives a majority hold in the supreme court which overturned Roe v. Wade, and the emboldening and legitimizing of radical right-wing politicians led to the increased removal of trans rights.
What did you expect Biden to do to stop either of those things? I’m not defending the atrocities Biden has done and supports, but fault him for the correct things, not things that Trump caused.
Hey, if you're not trans, please stop using us as a political cudgel. The mainline democrats hate us too.
I apologize. I was responding to the points of the person higher up in this thread.
Yea I'm in New York state so unless I ball up my ballot and throw it at Biden so hard he dies my vote will literally have zero effect on the outcome.
So I vote for whoever is running against Steffanick isf they aren't a genocidal lib (they usually get about 12% of the vote, showing the likelihood of a good person ever actually getting elected) and then vote for whoever doesn't want to get rid of public education for local elections but that's usually somebodys aunt who agreed to run so a Maga lunatic can't eliminate school lunches and bus routes.
But check this out, none of those people have the ability, intention, or motivation to help murder thousands of innocent Palestinians.
It's actually not hard to not support genocide, unless you're a lib of course.
There's harm to my soul because I'd be putting down ceremonial support for a perpetrator of genocide. There's no benefit to voting for Biden.
You could vote for somebody who doesn't support genocie and vocally declare you won't vote for anybody doing a genocide until the dems run somebody who doesn't do genocide.
I know not actively supporting genocide is an unreasonable bar for liberals but you asked.
Stay home and jack off?
Biden and Trump are equally evil and either of them being president is a disaster for the world. They're exactly the same in terms of political outcome and I'm never issuing support for either, both are imperialist and responsible for genocide. I'm never voting for either, even if it would simply be ceremonial.
And don't even come with me with I'll be responsible for Trump then. I don't care. I do not see any difference between the two. I live in Texas anyway so my presidential vote simply doesn't matter.
You keep saying lesser of two evils.
The only difference I've seen between Trump and Biden is now that Biden is president libs scream at progressives to stop complaining because it makes them look bad.
Well that and when republican was president dems said tou had tonvote for them or else we'd lose abortion access, transgender people would lose rights, and covid would run rampant.
So we all voted for Biden and now there's no abortion protection, Trans people are loosing rights, we ignored the oandemic and cut all relief efforts, and now we're supporting and funding the worst genocide in a generation.
If you're going to argue you're the lesser of two evils you might want to try being less evil.
When Trump was president Pelosi was dressing up in fucking African garments pretending to support those ideas.
Bidens president and they're all voting to establish that criticizing Isreal is antisemitism.
Rank and file liberals are literally worse under a democratic president.
Staying home is practical as hell yo
Not gonna get that by rolling over for the democrats as they continue to become more and more right wing. Your support is part of the problem. You wanna move a party left? Deny them power until they do or why would they bother? They already have your support even if you hate them. You're their sub
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Nobody. Nothing by voting.
Which is exactly the same as what you're going to accomplish.
Giving a homeless person a dollar does more to improve the lives of the vulnerable in this country than voting for a Democrat.
What would voting for Biden accomplish?
Keeping Trump out of the oval office is extremely important if I want to be allowed to vote again in my lifetime.
How? He was there before and you got to vote. Also whst has voting done for you so far?