The
2004 2008 2012 2016 2020 2024election is the most important election of our lives. Democracy is at stake and we need to hold our noses and vote for the lesser evil.If [current challenger or incumbent] gets elected you'll never vote again.
Isn’t it a bit different when one candidate/party has outright said they plan to take steps to end democracy, and has previously participated in an attempted coup?
Pretending like our elections are currently normal as usual is absurd, we literally had a coup attempt for the 2020 election.
Yes, the 2024 election has democracy on the ballot and it isn't even a controversial statement to say so.
also American elections are rigged anyway. Neither group of politicians really bothers campaigning outside their base they just both compete to rig the election so their base's votes count more
2000 - Gore decides to concede during a close recount
2020 - The big lie, an attack on our Capitol, fake elector plot, phone call to Georgia pressuring it to flip, dominion lawsuit, and more.
They do not compare, simple as that.
I'm aware of what happened in 2000, don't get me wrong. But my point is recent events have been far more egregious, dangerous and unprecedented.
Trying to compare the 2 is uninformed at best, bad faith at worst.
Wow, fuck you very much. Trump's FAILED coup is more dangerous and egregious that Bush's SUCCESSFUL coup? Trump's complete lack of power is more dangerous than Bush redestroying the middle east on false pretences of chemical and nuclear weapons, mobilising terrorist attacks and organisations worldwide?
The only excuse for such a pathetically stupid statement is that you're a little baby who wasn't around for any of the last 2 decades and are just making things up based on vibes. "wah wah wah, I can't remember bush so nothing must have happened". You are an embarrassment. Delete your account and jump in the ocean.
I am sincerely convinced that Trump is far smarter than Bush as well
Idk I think Bush is definitely smarter seeing as he never suffered any consequences and Trump has been charged with crimes.
As our friend Parenti says:
Are our leaders stupid? Or are we stupid for not seeing how successful they really are at getting what they want?
Patriot act and everything else under Bush vs Trump getting some new hogs in Mara Lago
no I've seen bush talk he is stupid. Bush didn't get in trouble because he has manners. The establishment doesn't hate Trump for who he is he's an old money rich guy maing tax cuts and hating immigrants ffs he is the establishment. Trump gets in trouble because he has no filter and says things which make the American establishment look like a bunch of assholes in front of their society friends and in Europe
He is the most American president they've ever had and he's just embarassing
Say what you will, but that's stupid to me.
He has the bag and then suffers consequences for apparently no gain besides saying what hogs want to hear whereas Bush also cut taxes, literally stole 2 elections, and lied the US into trillion dollar wars with no consequence and is seen as a painter now who makes Masterclasses
They will redeem Trump one day.
Trump says that shit because it gets attention and he also hasn't actually faced consequences yet and is very much on track to win the republican nomination and I wouldn't rule him out for presidency
Oh yeah I still think it's a coin flip if he's president in a year and change, don't get me wrong, I just think Bush was able to accomplish all Trump did and much more with even less consequence
they aren't trying to do the same thing though Bush got into politics because it's the family business. Trump seems to just want attention
Agreed there, vanity is really the only reason Trump got into all this in my eyes
I like to imagine you’re @Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net but you slip into this alt when it’s time to drop knowledge on em
Several hundred bored far right small business owners and boomer QAnon weirdos walking around the capitol for a few hours, stealing a few things and then one of them dying from tasering himself in the balls with absolutely no actual change in power is not a coup.
Lmao liberals will tell you we narrowly escaped the MAGA Reich because some incompetent losers broke a few windows and smeared human shit on the walls
Your metrics are just vibe-based then.
2000 was absolutely more of a coup than Jan 6th by almost every functional metric. Your main criticism of Jan 6th and Trump are based more on civility than actual policy. Nothing about Trump was uniquely terrible for a Republican president policy wise, he just said the quiet part out loud.
Thanks for another example of why voting for dema is a waste of time because they don't even give a shit and will loose while claiming the moral high ground given the first possible opportunity.
How many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote FOR something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
-Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72
Arendt is one to fucking talk since she supported segregation in America
not a single election in U.S. history has EVER had "democracy on the ballot." We don't have a fucking democracy. When's the last time anyone has picked a candidate? Year after year, everyone I talk to irl and online despises both candidates. Try to tell someone making minimum wage to go wait in line at the polls to vote, missing those work hours would be literally detrimental. Even if all of those things were disregarded, the popular vote has been fucking ignored in several elections for a convoluted system that was founded by fucking slave owners. even if donald shart "removed democracy" what would change? because Trump's policy is slightly worse than joe brandons? both of them will uphold the status quo, fund the zionist settler colony, lock up latinx immigrants in concentration camps, build a border wall, prolong the proxy war, expand the military industrial complex, continue a fierce grip on the imperial periphery, i could fucking go on. the dems had a presidency and a majority in Congress when roe was overturned and what did they do to try and stop it? NOTHING. no matter who wins, democracy will never be at stake because THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY. so try and tell me democracy is on the ballot again. fucking do it.
even if donald shart "removed democracy" what would change?
Nothing really, the real reason why most liberals hate Trump is because he doesn't hide the fact that the USA is not a real democracy and is a fascistic state. Usually the democrats try to hide it better than the republicans, so their voters can sleep well without thinking about all the people the US kills outside and inside their country.
Which is anti-democratic and I am glad you mention it because it means my vote in california doesn't even matter anyway lmao.
Your democracy is a fucking joke.
While there are two dominant political parties in the United States, every presidential election I've participated in has had more than two candidates to choose from. I'd appreciate it if you'd expand upon your point.
How many presidential elections have you participated in where more than two parties received any electoral votes at all?
I assumed you understood how a presidential election worked in the US. Was I mistaken?
I'm not an elector, so why would you bring up the electoral college?
Because they're an instrumental part of how the election process works for quite a while now. If a candidate is receiving 0 electoral votes they are functionally as electable as you or I.
You've more than proven yourself to be in bad faith here though, so you'll have to pester someone else with future efforts.
I'm literally just asking you to explain your own understanding of presidential elections and that's somehow acting in bad faith? What else am I supposed to do, given that you mistakenly believe that there are only two political parties in the US and, for some unknown reason, I'm an elector and not just a regular voter?
Against my better judgement, why not.
If you're acting in good faith why did you not answer when I asked if you understood how our elections work?
If you're acting in good faith where did I state you were an elector?
If you're acting in good faith why are you badgering with a question that you already know the answer to?
No. You are not "literally just asking you to explain your own understanding of presidential elections" and you know it. You refuse to participate in the discussion in favor of your own, possibly with the intent of seeking some kind of so-called gotcha moment. It's not coming. They're are functionally two parties within our presidential elections.
Since 1900 a third party candidate has received more than 5% of the popular vote (that's you and me) roughly 6 times. That number drops to about 4 if you want more than 10%. In that same time a third party candidate has received any votes from electors (which are outdated but still very much the ones who are counted thus important to the process as it exists) in 6 elections. The last one was in 1972.
And just to further reinforce, that's any votes from electors. The highest in that time was in 1912 when Theodore Roosevelt received 88. George Wallace later got 46 in 1968 and Strom Thurmond managed 39 in 1948. They continue downward from there.
So no, as you've been told by others, a third party candidate is generally not electable in the system we have. This is why the system is often called a two party system despite the existence of third parties. You'll notice in common parlance they're not counted, they're called third parties. This is not a controversial opinion I hold, it's how it is widely discussed by laymen and experts alike.
But you already knew all that and instead chose to badger to try and, I can only assume, have some kind of moment or way you were right. You were acting in bad faith and I have no more time or energy for your type of "discussion". Goodbye.
I ignored your bad faith questioning of my understanding of presidential elections for the sake of civility. Second, this thread is about votes cast in the general election, not the electoral college; as I've tried to make clear, I do not vote in the electoral college. Third, your Wikipedia data-dive is fascinating, but irrelevant to your theory that votes can be cast against candidates.
Face it: there are only two candidates who realistically have a chance at winning the general election. It’s been that way for every US election we’ve seen.
If you vote for someone who doesn’t have a realistic chance of winning, that’s about the same as just not voting at all.
So you really have 3 choices: candidate A, candidate B, or indifference.
And there are two possible outcomes: candidate A or candidate B.
If one of those outcomes is at all preferable to the other, (e.g. either A is “better” or B is “worse”), it’s strategically best to vote for the main candidate you prefer, since that increases the chance of getting your preference of the two outcomes.
Right now candidate A and candidate B are functionally the same.
So you're ashamed to support it? Honestly that's even worse. I understand quietly doing it because you think you have to but going around telling everyone about it and trying to convince them to as well doesn't seem like shame to me. Seems like you're proud about it
i think he means he doesn't support it, he was pointing out the flaw of the two party system?
Lmao not voting for Genocide Joe no matter how much the
🥂 
wine cave warriors will shame anyone. This sort of meme is fucking gross to all the people suffering from Biden continuing all Trumps worst policies and liberals doing zero to fight against more fascist policies and support for genocide in Palestine.They can earn our vote by literally doing ANYTHING that actually materially benefits marginalized people or workers. So far they have nothing.
They can earn our vote by literally doing ANYTHING that actually materially benefits marginalized people or workers.
You mean like gun safety legislation (biggest in 30 years which unfortunately doesn't say much), inflation reduction and infrastructure measures, repealing DOMA, or taking steps against systemic racism?
I agree, none of it is enough, and honestly he probably does too. You can guess that based on other things he's tried to do and been stopped, like student loan relief. That's a great example because while it was blocked by Republicans, he's been taking other avenues to get some out there at least. That demonstrates it's not just demonstrative efforts, which is a popular argument when that kinda thing happens.
But I get it. I'm no big fan of Biden myself. Then again, you didn't say he's not doing enough. You said "literally ANYTHING". It's right there in your comment and quoted at the top of this one.
Now since we've demonstrated he's done more than literally anything, were you uninformed and will now change your stance, or were you a liar? If you were a liar did you already know that he'd done those things, or are you just not willing to stick to the criteria you yourself established?
Anything of material consequence this is the difference between liberals and communists. You think bourgeois politicians act in good faith or have your actual material interests at heart. You have a purely aesthetics understanding of politics.
Even if he actually did any of that in the way you think he did and I somehow benefitted from those things, I still wouldn't vote for him because you can't buy my vote with all the material appeals in the world if it means being complicit with genocide in return for table scraps. Fuck you and everyone like you. Wake the fuck up.
My life doesn't revolve around you or this site. I'll respond to things when I see them. I'm sorry if this is all you have going for you.
Neither does mine, I just can't help but see people say shit like you and be disgusted by it and every now and then I will call one of you out and you all react the same way. You can't actually tell me what your "good work fighting for Real Change I Can Affect (TM)" or in other words useless electoral politics once every four years, has accomplished MATERIALLY.
And I am sure you are a good voter that makes Informed Decisions. Maybe you even vote in primaries. Great! If so I applaud you, you are on the path to learning how futile bourgeois electoralism is (which based on your response I doubt) or (and I feel this seems more likely based on the evidence available) you just don't have any fuckin skin in the game and feel comfortable smugly trying to shame people into supporting someone that actively hates them and seeks to destroy their communities and movements through actions no matter his words.
Biden wants us fucking dead, indigenous people, communists, LGBTQ people, immigrants, etc.
The man is a sex pest, a segregationist, and a genocidal imperialist. If you can't see how twisted it is to beg people to vote for that man instead of demanding better from the so-called "lesser evil" then you aren't as morally superior as you think you are.
You also listed the fact he increased funding for fascist police who protect the fascists attacking drag shows etc. So if you actually cared about vulnerable groups in the US you would be threatening to withhold your vote too, but as I said you have no skin in the game, your politics is purely vibes based and idealist.
Demanding people that are actually laying their lives on the line to actually FIGHT for the things you profess to care about, vote for a man that would sooner have them dead than capitulate with our demands, you display a stunning amount of privilege and lack of ever having risked anything yourself for REAL change.
Please tell my friends on the reservations, or my friends living in their cars, or the ones getting arrested for speaking out against US support for genocide, or being brutalized for protesting pipeline constructions, or protesting against bigger more robust training facilities to put down said movements, tell all those people how they have to vote for Joe Biden, go tell it to their face and come back to me.
Wake up. People are dying RIGHT NOW WHILE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.
I just wanna thank you Nakoichi because you are one of the most powerful posters I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing
Let's take care of some housekeeping first, since I'm not going to goaded into continuing a variety of conversation chains. It is not my democracy. If you're eligible to vote in California it is our democracy. I didn't make it or choose it any more than you did. We live in the same country and are bound by the same government with the same system.
Moving on to the comment this one replies to...
I just can't help but see people say shit like you and be disgusted by it and every now and then I will call one of you out and you all react the same way.
Is it because you're using the same arguments each time? There's a common phrase about the definition of insanity you may want to look up if so.
You can't actually tell me what your "good work fighting for Real Change I Can Affect (TM)"
Ah, a common tactic. You're uncomfortable with the direction the conversation has been taking so you're trying to shift focus to me. That's one problem. See it wasn't on me to tell you what that is, I asked you what ideas you had that would be feasible. You haven't done that. This whole conversation isn't about me or what I do. Realistically I doubt you would believe me if I told you as you seem to have presupposed a lot about me already.
or in other words useless electoral politics once every four years, has accomplished MATERIALLY.
I definitely can't tell you a thing when you continue to refuse to define how you're using a term, caps regardless. Materially has a few different definitions but at its core it's generally "of value". That's the general idea I assumed in the first place and provided you things accordingly. You dismissed them and did not elaborate, only stressed words.
And I am sure you are a good voter that makes Informed Decisions. Maybe you even vote in primaries. Great! If so I applaud you
Thanks! I bet that was hard for you to say.
you are on the path to learning how futile bourgeois electoralism is
Ah, no, see I did that a long time ago. The thing is there's not one path through any part of life. Just because you have dismissed a way of thinking you now attribute to me doesn't mean that you're ahead somehow.
It's also amusing you keep reusing the same big words, but I digress.
(which based on your response I doubt) or (and I feel this seems more likely based on the evidence available) you just don't have any fuckin skin in the game and feel comfortable smugly trying to shame people into supporting someone
The only thing I tried to shame you for was being a liar. You said Biden could earn your vote and later said you'd never vote for him. You said an untrue thing, that makes you a liar.
that actively hates them and seeks to destroy their communities and movements through actions no matter his words.
Which actions?
Biden wants us fucking dead, indigenous people, communists, LGBTQ people, immigrants, etc.
The man is a sex pest, a segregationist, and a genocidal imperialist.
You're thinking of the other guy. It's true Biden did some shitty things in his too long career in government but dollars to donuts you're a different person today than you were 20 years ago. That doesn't excuse shitty behavior, but it makes a lot more sense to judge someone based on their current action when they don't agree with the ones of the past, wouldn't you agree?
And none of that is to indicate there's no problems with Biden as that's simply untrue. I get the impression you think I'm some kind of big Biden booster. That's silly.
If you can't see how twisted it is to beg people to vote for that man
Where did I beg anyone to vote for him? You said you'd vote for him under certain circumstances, I exposed that those circumstances exist under my understanding of your continually undefined terminology.
instead of demanding better from the so-called "lesser evil"
What have I done in my life to demand better? Do you know? Of course not! You've exchanged a couple messages with me. You have no idea what efforts I've made to demand better, or continue to make. Just because I don't think taking my ball and going home instead of participating in whatever minimal way I have is one doesn't mean I've done nothing.
You also listed the fact he increased funding for fascist police who protect the fascists attacking drag shows etc.
Nope. I may have listed a bill that included such things, but you can see my reasons for listing them in my comment. You are aware that political action in our broken, corrupt system often includes shit with important, useful things, right?
So if you actually cared about vulnerable groups in the US you would be threatening to withhold your vote too
Because if I think a thing, or feel a thing important the only possible action is the one you do? If your vote doesn't matter what is withholding it going to do?
but as I said you have no skin in the game
You did, again without knowledge of me or what so called skin I may have in the proverbial game.
your politics is purely vibes based and idealist.
More assumptions about me.
Demanding people that are actually laying their lives on the line to actually FIGHT for the things you profess to care about
What demands have I made? What fights have I fought?
vote for a man that would sooner have them dead than capitulate with our demands
Based on what?
you display a stunning amount of privilege and lack of ever having risked anything yourself for REAL change.
I don't know that the amount of privilege I have is "stunning". Extant definitely but hardly stunning.
And again you assume I've never risked anything for any real change. You assume this based on a few paragraphs of text.
Please tell my friends on the reservations, or my friends living in their cars, or the ones getting arrested for speaking out against US support for genocide, or being brutalized for protesting pipeline constructions, or protesting against bigger more robust training facilities
Fun fact, if I were your friend (and so far I think I'm pretty happy I'm not) I'd have been eligible to be on that list in the past. Hell, there was a time in my life that being in one of those categories would have been an improvement for me.
But that probably doesn't fit well with the image of me you've created for yourself. Maybe you'll insist I'm lying.
to put down said movements
Why would I do that? Wait, do you think people who vote all just collectively dust off their hands and go "I did my part, time to get back to the business factory and ignore any other problems in the world"?
tell all those people how they have to vote for Joe Biden, go tell it to their face and come back to me.
Why? There's probably a few of them that already did and may again. If you act with them the way you do here I definitely wouldn't fault them for not telling you. If they don't that's their business. I think it's a bit short sighted, but I'm not campaigning for the guy. You said some stupid shit and I called you out on it. The rest of this has just been absurdity.
Wake up. People are dying RIGHT NOW WHILE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.
Italics and bold are right there, your caps are tiresome.
Yes, people are dying right now. They will be dying next year and the year after. If we all installed your idea of the best possible option as a president they'd die under them too. Some of them would even be that person's fault.
This is part of why you get the same things back all the time. You have rhetoric full of youthful idealism. Maybe you're youthful, maybe you're not. That doesn't really matter.
The point is the world is a flawed, fucked up mess. It's full of imperfect people, many of which more interested in their own advancement than the well being of others. This time next year either a Democrat or a Republican will be elected as the president for 2025-2029. If it's a Democrat things will be somewhat less shitty for a lot the people you want to think I don't care about. That's demonstrable for quite a while. Back to Reagan at least.
What you don't seem to get is that I can help the ones I have access to, but have very little I can do for all the rest. What I can do is a mostly symbolic but in an unlikely but not impossible scenario incredibly useful effort to put a president that might do any amount of good for them.
You've also got it twisted. By and large Democrats don't care about a very large part of the population, sure, but they're not actively seeking to kill them. That's the Republicans. They die through inaction or blocked action.
You, however, are playing right into the hands of the Republicans. Attacking those who would be your allies. It's just like the people who complain that a higher minimum wage would mean unskilled laborers would make too close to what they make, not understanding they aren't fairly paid either.
Instead you try to drag me to a different post where you think you'll have back up by putting words into my mouth and assigning me positions that I don't hold. Even if you had followed your own instances rules and it hadn't been taken down it wouldn't have worked. I'm not interested in debating you or anyone "dunking" on anyone else. You made a statement and I called you on it. You were a liar and I pointed it out. If you don't like it, don't lie. Fuck, a "Maybe" at the front of a statement and this whole exchange may never have happened and I might not know you're the kind of person to call someone a "fucking coward" because they went to sleep instead of hanging around to have a pointless conversation.
And it has been pointless. I'm not going to continue after this as I've found nothing of value in it, and I sincerely doubt you have either.
But you really should.
Really because in the last day you've written 4 page long essays as responses arguing abaout literally everything except why you should be accountable for the consequences of the policies you support.
Anything of material consequence
Which he's done. Ask one of the people who were pardoned from their federal possession charges, or received student loan relief. If those aren't material consequence you'll need to more clearly define what you mean by the term.
this is the difference between liberals and communists.
So you understand neither term
You think bourgeois politicians act in good faith or have your actual material interests at heart.
Where did I say that? I said he has backed up his intent for student loan relief with action even when meeting resistance.
You have a purely aesthetics understanding of politics.
Says the guy who has one comment and knows my outlook on all political matters
Even if he actually did any of that in the way you think he did and I somehow benefitted from those things, I still wouldn't vote for him
So you're a liar. I had need of a lawyer once and he told me it was fine if I didn't remember something and said so. It wasn't ok if I said something happened one way and it didn't because then I was a liar and he couldn't help anymore. You devalue your own words. You'd do well to think on that beyond any assumptions about my feelings on our legal system.
with all the material appeals in the world if it means being complicit with genocide in return for table scraps.
Then don't claim that it can be done. I'm also interested in what your viable suggestions for better with the tools we have are. That appears to be the difference between you and I. I'm interested in what change can actually happen to improve people's lives. It looks a whole lot like you want to move immediately into "no bad things". Letting perfect be the enemy of good.
Fuck you and everyone like you
And that's a big reason you'll get exactly nowhere. Name me a person who has enacted major change for their people without working with someone who they disagreed with and I'll reconsider.
Wake the fuck up.
Likewise
How do you write such long posts that say NOTHING of value, this shit is pathetic
Just smarmy smug Reddit shit
Imagine listing more tools and money for fascist cops as a good thing lmao.
So look, I’m all for a complete revamp of this trash electoral system and the shitty “government” it allegedly controls, but until we have a unified movement of hundreds of millions of people behind that, it isn’t happening without years of instability and many failed attempts.
So yes, I’ll vote for the lesser of two evils.
You’ve never chosen the lesser of two evils because you didn’t have any other practical options?
Oh, in that case you’ve convinced me. Solid point, and well-articulated at that.
— _ —
Nobody's trying to convince you, we're several decades past expecting liberals to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
I admit that my vote for Biden is a portion of the reason Biden’s in office, and Biden being in office is a portion of the reason the USA is funding genocide. No I’m not fucking proud of it.
What’s the viable AND better alternative to Biden in 2024?
The results are the same but you don't have to do an extra errand that day. With the time saved you could watch like 3 episodes of star trek
Voting takes me 5 minutes, especially since I get my ballot in the mail.
I guess Star Trek episodes are a lot shorter than I thought
Withholding your vote is the only way to push the democrats left. Otherwise they know you're their little piggies who'll lick their heels and vote for them just because they're not Republicans despite the growing lack of material difference. You're their subs. Make them either work earn your vote or perish. Don't you see the pattern occurring again and again since Clinton? The dems move right and hold try to hold the left hostage with the Republicans as a threat. Things were pretty much the same under Trump as Biden, don't be a coward and hold your party accountable. They don't deserve your vote for being better than Trump.
Edit: also, die in a house fire you annoying little dweeb
also, die in a house fire you annoying little dweeb
How I feel like every VBNMW nerd in this thread.
Voting takes me several hours out of work. Work that I need to do to keep my roof and lights on, it also eats into actual direct action work I do IRL.
Voting is fucking worthless except if there is some exceptionally cool local city council person or w/e to vote for.
It absolutely sucks but voting locally is a way you can improve your ability to vote. Incremental improvements towards leftist policies at the local level will sway more people to leftist policies, resulting in greater support overall towards the left.
Yes and this is not about voting locally its about not voting for a genocidal monster.
Just because there isn't a better option doesn't mean you have to choose a bad option that's literally the deffinition of the illusion of choice.
If somebody told me theybwere either going to slap me in the face or kick me in the balls and I said "what about I pick neither of those things" would you also show up to smugly lecture me
Especially if I was using the time to do things that would actually protect people from the consequences like setting up communal support structures to get together and make sure nobody gets slapped or kicked
Okay, are you using your time to set up communal support structures for people? Or are you just using the amount of time you save by not voting (which is generally 5 minutes saved for every 12 months lived) to do that?
Also, voting for Biden is like getting punched in the face. Voting for Trump is like getting punched in the face and having your right to vote for anything (face punches or any possible alternative) revoked. Not voting for either is like saying “eh, they’re both just the same to me”
You dipshits realize you sound dumb as hell when you say that if Trump gets elected nobody will vote again right.
You said the exact same thing last time and then somehow managed to lose an election to him thanks to brilliant electoral strategies like not campaigning in keybstates and then he was voted out 4 years later.
Also I am not going to be lectured on how effective or thorough my communal support systems are by some dumbshit lib lecturing me on how important it is to vote for a Democrat presidential candidate as a resident of New York.
If Jesus Christ came down waving a black and red flag it would still be a waste of time to vote in federal elections, let alone taking time out of my day to do it for somebody actively carrying out a genocide.
I didn’t say anything about the effectiveness of the communal support structures you mentioned. I think spending time putting effort into that is extremely valuable and important.
You said that if you didn’t waste time voting you’d have more time to put your efforts into communal support structures so I challenged you on that and you didn’t respond to that challenge.
So again I ask: do you put your time into developing or reinforcing communal support structures for other people?
I do not but I consider that a failure on my own part. I’ve been looking for ways I can help my community which won’t burn me out quickly on top of my dreary job.
Fuck off nerd go pearl clutch elsewhere.
I'm saying take all the effort and time you would waste worrying about the futility of electoral politics and go organize a food drive.
I understand being angry about the state of American politics but I don’t understand why you’re venting your anger at me. I’ve been continuing this conversation because I legitimately would like to understand your point of view and potentially be persuaded.
Because for somebody who wants to understand my point of view you sure are spending a lot of time writing replies after I explicitly stated it three times.
Electoralism is pointless at anything above a county level, national democrats aren't any better than Republicans, and even if they were the chances of them learning how to stop enthusiastically jumping on rakes is slim. You've done more to reduce human suffering by giving a homeless person a dollar than any kind of electoralism the DNC wouldn't immediatly put out a statement condemning.
Yes, no duh, but I mean options that are practical for me to do until other people finally agree to organize/unionize and make everything better for each other
Not voting for the extermination of the Palestinian people is a good compromise measure until then
I have a single vote that I can use in the 2024 presidential election. There are two ways that vote can go. One is a vote for the funding of the extermination of the Palestinian people, and the other is a vote for the funding of the extermination of the Palestinian people AND the extermination of whatever shred of American democracy there is left.
Tell me, is there some other way I can use my vote that has a good chance of making a difference or are we all just as fucked as it seems like we are?
There aren't any shreds of American democracy and there never have been. I don't know what country you live in, but I'm an American and we've never had democracy here.
I personally am far from saying there is no harm in voting for Biden, but because of your comment I have to ask you: what harm is there in voting for Biden if there is no shred of democracy in the USA?
Well let's see since the last election when we were told we had to vote for Biden or else we'd lose abortion, trans people would have rights stripped and we'd stop doing covid relief we elected Biden and then all those things happened and we started doing the worse genocide of a generation.
Dems keep insisting they're the lesser of two evils but then completely fail to prevent the greater evil when given power electorally.
This meme and this thread is not about local elections. Yes every serious communist participates in local elections (when there is something real to vote for)
You were faulting Biden’s election for the abolition of abortion and the removal of trans rights when I’m pretty sure those are both indirect results of Trump being elected. Trump gave conservatives a majority hold in the supreme court which overturned Roe v. Wade, and the emboldening and legitimizing of radical right-wing politicians led to the increased removal of trans rights.
What did you expect Biden to do to stop either of those things? I’m not defending the atrocities Biden has done and supports, but fault him for the correct things, not things that Trump caused.
Hey, if you're not trans, please stop using us as a political cudgel. The mainline democrats hate us too.
I apologize. I was responding to the points of the person higher up in this thread.
Yea I'm in New York state so unless I ball up my ballot and throw it at Biden so hard he dies my vote will literally have zero effect on the outcome.
So I vote for whoever is running against Steffanick isf they aren't a genocidal lib (they usually get about 12% of the vote, showing the likelihood of a good person ever actually getting elected) and then vote for whoever doesn't want to get rid of public education for local elections but that's usually somebodys aunt who agreed to run so a Maga lunatic can't eliminate school lunches and bus routes.
But check this out, none of those people have the ability, intention, or motivation to help murder thousands of innocent Palestinians.
It's actually not hard to not support genocide, unless you're a lib of course.
There's harm to my soul because I'd be putting down ceremonial support for a perpetrator of genocide. There's no benefit to voting for Biden.
You could vote for somebody who doesn't support genocie and vocally declare you won't vote for anybody doing a genocide until the dems run somebody who doesn't do genocide.
I know not actively supporting genocide is an unreasonable bar for liberals but you asked.
Biden and Trump are equally evil and either of them being president is a disaster for the world. They're exactly the same in terms of political outcome and I'm never issuing support for either, both are imperialist and responsible for genocide. I'm never voting for either, even if it would simply be ceremonial.
And don't even come with me with I'll be responsible for Trump then. I don't care. I do not see any difference between the two. I live in Texas anyway so my presidential vote simply doesn't matter.
You keep saying lesser of two evils.
The only difference I've seen between Trump and Biden is now that Biden is president libs scream at progressives to stop complaining because it makes them look bad.
Well that and when republican was president dems said tou had tonvote for them or else we'd lose abortion access, transgender people would lose rights, and covid would run rampant.
So we all voted for Biden and now there's no abortion protection, Trans people are loosing rights, we ignored the oandemic and cut all relief efforts, and now we're supporting and funding the worst genocide in a generation.
If you're going to argue you're the lesser of two evils you might want to try being less evil.
When Trump was president Pelosi was dressing up in fucking African garments pretending to support those ideas.
Bidens president and they're all voting to establish that criticizing Isreal is antisemitism.
Rank and file liberals are literally worse under a democratic president.
Not gonna get that by rolling over for the democrats as they continue to become more and more right wing. Your support is part of the problem. You wanna move a party left? Deny them power until they do or why would they bother? They already have your support even if you hate them. You're their sub
Nobody. Nothing by voting.
Which is exactly the same as what you're going to accomplish.
Giving a homeless person a dollar does more to improve the lives of the vulnerable in this country than voting for a Democrat.
Keeping Trump out of the oval office is extremely important if I want to be allowed to vote again in my lifetime.
How? He was there before and you got to vote. Also whst has voting done for you so far?
Not voting for Biden and there is quite literally nothing anyone can say to persuade me to vote for him.
To expand on my point even further, in any future presidential election I will never vote for any president regardless of what anyone says.
If anyone can figure out why, I'll make them an theoretical honorary mod of one of the channels I'm on.
I'll throw out an unexpected guess— are you in a state where the electoral college means your vote doesn't matter?
Bing bong! Correct! And that state is Alaska, where the presidential election is already over while we're just over 1/3 of the way through our day of voting.
Which is why it is in the most literal sense of the word a complete waste of time voting for a president to me.
there literally was a trump presidency and that didn't happen
It almost did. Jan 6th was a coup attempt.
On the campaign trail a day or two ago he literally said, "...we've been waging an all-out war on American democracy."But go on and insist it is "both sides" to up your edgelord cred. You're never going to find any politician that agrees with you on every issue. Unless you get off your ass and run, which we know is too much effort for you.
a half assed and unserious coup attempt. Trump wasn't even directly involved it was less than a riot
The issue I disagree with Biden on is whether there should be a genocide
He's being charged with it because he CAN be linked directly to it. Half ass or not, it was a coup attempt. Saying it was half assed or not serious is exactly what people said about the Beer Hall Putsch. Look what happened after.
And you can't blame Biden for what Hamas did.
Hamas did not do this. Israel did this. None of this would be happening if they hadn't been carrying out a genocidal project of colonialism and apartheid the last 75 years.
Then please enlighten us on the history of how occupying a foreign land and displacing, oppressing and murdering the indigenous population in order to build a racially pure society is not genocidal colonialism.
2 comments from telling us all we have to vote for your candidate to literally telling us to go fuck ourselves.
Democrats are so fucking good at campaigning.
Lmao I can take it just fine I'm not over here crying because you told me to go fuck myself I'm laughing because apparently that's your strategy to get people to vote for a candidate they don't like.
"I know you don't like him and he's explicitly said he won't do anything you want but have you co sidereal go fuck yourself"
Wow you've really convinced me
Seems like we're back where we started where we both think the other can fuck off and I'm deffinitly still not voting for somebody doing genocide
Die painfully like the victims of your chosen president
Victory to Hamas and the freedom fighters of Palestine! Death to Israel and all zionists!
It was a coup attempt in the same way me screaming in my backyard is an attempt to become a super saiyan. Nothing happened. A bunch of meemaws and idiot conspiracy theorists milled about the house and Senate. They didn't even have the gumption to take a shit on the podium.
They had their true enemies within spitting distance and none of them threw a bomb or fired a shot. They took selfies. Absolute morons.
Nobody's blaming Biden for what hamas did they're blaming him for the genocide Isreal been doing in response.
By the way he just approved sending a bunch of bunker busters so Isreal can bomb even more hospitals indiscriminately.
Browbeating people into voting for a satanic right wing warmonger was a losing strategy in 2016 and it's a losing strategy now. There is a massive chance now that Biden will lose as a direct result of his actions in Gaza. This is directly Biden's fault and no amount of fearmomgering about January 6th will change it, for the record most people don't really even care.
If you're concerned about losing "our democracy", blame the DNC. That they're content with running a senile maniac who is actively facilitating a genocide should enrage you more than people online expressing their disgust with his criminal behavior.
Yea if democrats are so fucking concerned about democracy maybe they should, I don't know, support one of the policies 80% of their base is loudly telling them matters to them.
Like not having Biden be the nominee.
It almost did. Jan 6th was a coup attempt.
There was no mechanism for it actually succeeding. It was an attempt the same way a child attempts to transform into a bird.
Jan 6th was a coup attempt.
And 2000 was a coup success. What's your point? Something about protecting a democracy?
wow, 600 rednecks waltzed into the capital, completely unorganized with no demands.
coup attempt? fucking seriously?
Hey they had to shoot a gun exactly one time to get every single person to go home as soon as the concept of consequences metastasized in their brains.
How are we supposed to stop them next time.
You'll never vote again.
I've never voted for any president you baby-brained jackass. You might as well worship the ground I step on because me not voting apparently helped Biden and Obama win, by your twisted logic
If that simple observation set you off, go check your diaper. You DID ask us.
Nobody asked for your opinion you trump-brained liberal cultist
None of the people Biden killed through war profiteering, supporting genocide, and policy failure will vote again either.
Glad to hear your proud to support all that death though. Good on you for owning up to supporting the atrocities
Social murder is murder and Biden is at the very top of the chain that led to those deaths
Well in 1/3 of US provisional elections in the 21st century, the candidate with the most votes has lost the election thanks to the electoral college. So even if they did go vote, there is a 1 in 3 chance that the candidate with the most votes loses the election.
Which is really weird because the US brands itself as the bastion of freedom and democracy internationally, yet they do not follow two of the most important principles of democracy itself. Those being one man equals one vote, and the candidate with the most votes wins. Lots of people in the USA effectively do not have a vote for president with how the electoral college is structured.
Thats literally what you useless dumb fucks said right before Hillary managed to lose the easiest election of a lifetime using the exact same strategy you're using this time.
Maybe Biden will exceed expectations and actually go to states he depends on to win.
It literally is, too many states have passed primary registration deadlines. Only option would be something happening at the DNC, which,
I think the DNC votes for it, not sure to be honest.
vs 
vs 
showdown with possible special guests pritzger and newsomHillary losing to Trump again would be the funniest fucking thing ever please god let this happen.
Best they can hope for is that Biden's earthly husk gives up the battle in time for them to pick someone less detestable.
That they haven't already makes me think that he's actually the best they've got
Eagerly looking forward to ticking the "against Trump" box in the ballot. Haven't seen one worded like that before
Don’t vote for a child smelling genocide endorsing rapist, maybe?
If your system only allows you to choose between 2 of the worst people you’ve ever heard of, that’s a bad system you shouldn’t condone or blindly participate in?
I'm voting for myself. President me. I'll make Fortnite illegal. Mango vapes will have federal protection and in fact will be mandatory
I'm not sure how someone can look at the mask-off cryptofascism of the American political system at this point and convince themselves that voting blue over red makes the tiniest bit of difference. The mountains of corpses both parties routinely inflict on the world at large makes any tiny delineation in rhetoric (and it is just rhetoric, because anyone with eyes knows the national level Democrats aren't doing shit about fuck even on culture war issues that they've fundraised off of for three decades, let alone any of the systemic evil and rot leaving billions in destitution) so fucking irrelevant that it's honestly a joke someone could even bother to try and shame people into casting votes that statistically would never influence the outcome of an election even if it was a fair and democratic process.
The bickering in this thread is just the latest example of how broken American politics is. There are no good candidates, only least bad ones, and we are forced into these shitty choices every single time because the people in power value profits over human rights and dignity.
I'm voting Biden, but I'm not happy about it.
Wringing your hands won't change the fact you're supporting a genocidal ghoul.
If Democrats get your support unconditionally, then that encourages them to completely ignore what you have to say because they already got your vote and that's all you're good for to them.
I find it fascinating how liberals here cannot conceive that Biden and Trump might as well be the same person. Their policies are identical because it doesn't matter anymore. America is on rails. This is a country run by a profit algorithm.
The only distinction between Biden and Trump to me is Trump is funnier.
I wouldn't describe "I don't know if I can vote for a guy supporting genocide" as bickering
Do you remember when liberals were arguing over how they'd vote for Mussolini over Hitler lmao
This is how their brains work
I get where they're coming from, the problem is there's no exit strategy. By voting for the lesser evil election after election you still get to the worst shit imaginable, it just takes a while.
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