“Better” than everyone else is a low bar. We can always do better. Why should women settle if we think leftists can do better? Would you tell me as a Gypsy I think leftists can struggle with racism that at least you’re not a Nazi… come on now.
Okay would you prefer I say leftists have a problem with it vs the left? English isn’t my first language so idk if that is a different meaning. To me It just seems like you want to ignore the valid issues I presented.
edit: also many of us here critic leftists many times. we shouldn’t think we are incapable of being critiqued.
That was putting words into my mouth then. My post was moreso “as leftists we shouldn’t use the word because we should know better.”
Also that’s your opinion. I do think language is important. If I don’t want men calling me bitch or white people calling me Gypsy, than they shouldn’t compare me to conservatives or try to make it seem like my point is undermining the leftist cause.
Well I have also seen nonwhite leftists be compared to conservatives for critiquing white leftists who are racist and I didn’t like that comparison either. There is a difference between leftists critiquing each other vs conservatives and I’d trust us all to be smart enough to know that
Gypsy is a much more complex word than people think. I don’t consider it a slur, most Gypsies don’t. Most Americans don’t know who Romani people are either so it’d usually necessary to say
I’ve answered this before if you wanna scroll through my comments for a more detailed reply but yes. Also inb4 you say it, this does not mean I think men can say bitch. Gypsy is not a slur and so it’s more complex
I hate the comparison of Gypsy to the N word tbh it always feels undermining antiblackness to me. Many of us call ourselves Gypsy and Gypsy is not usually used as an insult. Other words for us are bad like tsigane or cigani. Some of those literally mean “slave”
None have less misogyny. But just being the lesser misogynist is still very bad.
If you look at how racism was created, it was used to demean people who were different so you could justify othering and them oppressing them. The greeks essentially invented racism, claiming their light-brown tones indicated they were at the perfect temperature for their superior brains, and that meant anyone of a lighter or darker skin color had their place in the world as inferior slave. From what we can tell, oppressive and demeaning othering language was created and used for the sole intention of helping along social and material oppression:
“Aristotle, who lived from 384 to 322 BCE, concocted a climate theory to justify Greek superiority, saying that extreme hot or cold climates produced intellectually, physically, and morally inferior people who were ugly and lacked the capacity for freedom and self-government. Aristotle labeled Africans “burnt faces”—the original meaning in Greek of “Ethiopian”—and viewed the “ugly” extremes of pale or dark skins as the effect of the extreme cold or hot climates. All of this was in the interest of normalizing Greek slaveholding practices and Greece’s rule over the western Mediterranean Aristotle situated the Greeks, in their supreme, intermediate climate, as the most beautifully endowed superior rulers and enslavers of the world. “Humanity is divided into two: the masters and the slaves; or, if one prefers it, the Greeks and the Barbarians, those who have the right to command; and those who are born to obey,” Aristotle said. For him, the enslaved peoples were “by nature incapable of reasoning and live a life of pure sensation, like certain tribes on the borders of the civilized world, or like people who are diseased through the onset of illnesses like epilepsy or madness.” ― Ibram X. Kendi, Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America
This was repeated on africans during the slave trade and on indigenous people during the genocide-colonization, and many many other times. Demeaning language serves as othering propoganda that allows oppression to be the norm.
It's a really good book. https://b-ok.cc/book/2952220/92fe7f
Multiple things can normalize racial violence. I would also argue racial slurs are violence too. It was a comparison not a 100% nuanced history of slurs and violence.
Personally I only ever use it to describe myself, or my dog, but she knows that I'm just kidding around
Edit: not trying to make light of rozako's point though, I think she's right
Why wouldn't "b°tch" be in the same category as "d°ck"
Can't say I've used c*nt before other than mockingly in an Aussie accent to my bro's
Because dick is not a misogynistic insult primarily used towards women.
Edit: I will say I’m not the biggest fan of the word dick either but it’s completely different. Also mockingly using a slur is still using it
Okay guess I'm outing myself but I feel like "b°tch" is a general cuss word no different to me than "d°ck" or "a$$h°le"
Now obviously I'm not a woman so I don't have the same relationship with the word. But spanish is my first language but "puto" and "puta" are used at men and woman respectively so I don't understand the misogynistic nature when used in English
I think the problem is it is treated as a general cuss word or insult, but so was the R word for decades. Do you think people should say that word? If not, why is a word that has its origins of being a sexist slur any different than an ableist one?
Normalization =/= morally right. Which is why I believe we all should try not to use it especially men.
I don’t speak Spanish so I cannot comment on spanish words.
Thats just the translation of "b°tch" in Spanish with the a/o swapped for gender f/m respectively
Well the normalization of that word in any language I would disagree with.
Generally a good plan just so that you don't alienate people pointlessly. It might just be a normal joke in your head but it's very reasonably off-putting to tons of people, many of whom suffered very real abuse and can't process it as only an "incidentally" sexist joke word, which is how many men engage with it.
Avoiding it is solidarity, comrades.
That said, may I suggest a struggle session? What do we think of women and non-binary folks using the word? I don't think it's usually used in a reclaimed sense even then.
There’s definitely lots of women who feel they reclaim the word bitch. As said in another comment I don’t care who can say it because I say in the post I don’t really think women should say it either. I don’t like the normalization of the word(s) but realistically women are the targets so if they want to be like “i AM a bad bitch” then whatever I guess.
Reclaiming is good/fine, no doubt.
Older women in particular use it in a derogatory way, though. They also do the same with gendered terms for sex workers.
Yeah, in general I have issues with reclaiming most slurs cause like you said, even members of the targetted group use can weaponize the word.
No doubt, no doubt.
Good post as always, btw!
:rat-salute:
To add to this, it's also not cool to use gendered insults against bad people, no matter how bad they are. Just because a woman is a child-murdering spook doesn't make misogynistic slurs against her okay. There are many, many, many other ways to properly shit on those in power that are far more accurate and scathing than resorting to bigoted language.
:purge-1: the left is feminist and if you have problems with making comrades feel safe you were never really here :purge-2:
I think gay men and people can still be misogynistic so I wouldn’t give them a full pass but I see your viewpoint!
Also it’s less who can say for me and more why should any of us say it you know
