the phillipines speaks over 100 malayo-polynessian languages and zambia speaks a similar number of bantu languages. neither of them speak english as a primary language nor do they have the same connection to the west that latin america does
they speak lots of english in vietnam doesn’t make vietnam western. and there are different types and styles of colonization and imperialism it’s not just a one mode thing
The "West" is an overwhelmingly racist concept that produces bizarre things like the categorisation of countries in South America as not being western despite for example Uruguay or Argentina having a majority of people with predominantly European ancestors
a ton of Black Americans also have predominantly European ancestors, I guess racism is solved since they're all "western" right?
You can cope or bloviate all you want about this stuff, but real white people know the score and are playing the game. If you're pale with at least brown hair and have an American accent then sure, you pass regardless of what your ancestry is
The "West" is and HAS to be a racial concept, because if it weren't basically half if not the majority of the world could be considered Western and the term would just be meaningless. The racial concept is also in accordance with how westerners (actual ones) act.
The "West" is an overwhelmingly racist concept that produces bizarre things like the categorisation of countries in South America as not being western despite for example Uruguay or Argentina having a majority of people with predominantly European ancestors
This is not bizarre at all.
Uruguay and Argentina are exceptions. The average person in most South American countries save Uruguay, Argentina, and southern Brazil have close to 50% Euro admixture. In some countries like Peru, Bolivia, and others, it's lower than 25%. And in some of those countries they still speak Native American languages in significant parts.
This Euro admixture comes entirely from southern Europe. Italian Americans were discriminated well into the 1990s (possibly even now), while Irish Americans lost their stigma in the 1930s. Looks matter. And South Americans' European ancestry comes from an already visibly darker population (Spanish rather than Germans/Anglos)
,
Also: Europeans have predominantly Middle Eastern ancestors. They're literally 60% Middle Eastern by blood (on average--it's closer to 80% in Southern Europe). However, they got extra depigmented due to dark climates and mixture with northern aboriginals. Guess what? They look different, so they are able to do racism based on these physical differences. Hence, European and Middle Eastern are different blocs, despite the former being majority derived from the latter.
Guess who also looks different from Europeans? Every single Latino population, yes even the Argentinians. Despite them being derived from Europeans, they are not European. It is visually obvious that they are not European, even if they are majority European DNA. And so racism can be done to them. And so they cannot ever be considered part of the same bloc.
And yes, there are technically "white Argentinians", this is irrelevant. Only 30% of Argentinians (I'm spitballing here) look unnoticable from a US white person to me.
I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I've always considered our countries part of the West and think it's a little patronizing how richer Western nations don't consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we're majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We're kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we're included as Western or not.
I've always considered our countries part of the West and think it's a little patronizing how richer Western nations don't consider us Western
Don't you think that if your people are treated as second-class citizens in core Western countries, that you might actually NOT be Western in the eyes of anyone who actually cares about these terms?
Like, why can't you take the hint? Or have you really not figured it out yet?
How is observing reality patronizing? Why do you be want to considered "Western" so bad? Why can't you just be happy being Latin American?
person a: "you're dumb"
person b: "wow I've always noticed that my friend is so patronizing to me?"
person c: "uh maybe they're not actually your friend then"
person b: "wow your patronization is right on cue"
The shared cultural heritage between latin american and "western in the strictest sense" countries seems to be weaponized by certain groups within latin american societies. Because of this, I don't think we should completely disregard what our comrade from Honduras points out.
So because compradors weaponize those western values instilled via colonialism, they should embrace those values? Define themselves by it? I don't know how you see the relationship of compradors re-inforcing white supremacy and "western values" and don't buck them off and reject them and seek to destroy them. Instead, you argue online with western leftists who want to see the west destroyed? Instead you embrace those colonizer's values as the TRUE IDENTITY of your country? WTF.
You are inverting everything and glorifying colonization. This "honduran comrade" is essentially making the exact same arguments as his comprador masters want him to, fully internalizing the colonizing values and making it part of their identity.
I just think it should not come across as surprising that a Honduran considers Honduras a western country
If they are a communist and understand history of colonialism then they wouldn't see themselves as western nor would they want to see themselves as western. They would see their country as "westernized" by outside, imperialist forces - and they must decolonize and "de-westernize"
That it would be more productive to point out that class relations within Honduras supersede such cultural ties, instead of antagonizing him with how much a northern european would not consider him western.
It's not "antagonizing" someone to just plainly and clearly state the truth of their peripheral status and that the imperial core would eat them alive in a second if they felt like it. Any allegiance or camaraderie they feel with "the west" is entirely one-sided and in their own mind and they must be disabused of this fantasy. Pathetic for any communist to really hold these views, makes it sound like they would be little different from their comprador masters in practice - trying to suck up to the west for membership still, still being good house slaves and running dogs. I only trust people who hate the West, want to distance themselves from it, destroy it, and purge it from their societies. Wanting to be included in "the West" to me is basically class treason, especially to start making white supremacist adjacent argument about how "The West" means Ancient Greece, and there's nothing inherently racist about the Greeks so modern day "West" also isn't racist just another grouping of peoples.
This is chauvinistic delusion that any communist should be ashamed to think. Then to try and shame us for being racist when they have so internalized Western white supremacy is another layer on top.
I've always considered our countries part of the West and think it's a little patronizing how richer Western nations don't consider us Western.
They don’t consider you part of their racist white supremacist club, that’s a fact. Why do you want to be in it so bad and consider it offensive when they don’t include you? It should be an honor to be separate from the West, the West TM is fascist scum
I'm palestinian honduran so I wouldn't even bother trying to argue with the few people I'd run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don't see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don't get the point in bashing anyway I'm not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
Leftists have already figured out the difference between these regions, if you're curious. The Balkans are peripheral Europe. https://hexbear.net/post/1385667
Western can be a misnomer like global south. Half the time when I say NATO I'm mentally including Japan and Australia and occupied Korea. Japan and occupied Korea are pretty damn Western now depending on how you mean that.
I'm palestinian honduran so I wouldn't even bother trying to argue with the few people I'd run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western.
those "few people", aka the entirety of the population who actually cares about this shit lmao. Including the cunning ones who pretend to consider you guys "western" just for optics, and then support every standard right-wing American position
Nobody considers Christian, Portugese-speaking Angola to be "Western". Race is literally half the criteria.
I still don't see why it matters so much to american leftists tho
uhhh...because it matters to american rightists? If you spent a few months in America in a rural area with an Islamic name I think you'd learn pretty quick
"Western" = politically western European, and white
Russia isn't politically western so they don't fit
Poland used to not be western, but now is
Parts of the Balkans are part of the west (certainly not in the core though)
Japan and Korea are rich and vassal states of NATO, but are not white
America is technically mixed race, but the average white American is 98.5% white (and western european to boot), unlike any "white" person in any Latin country where even the least mixed people are still 20% Native admixed
Nothing in Latin America is Western in any sense other than cardinal directions. Yes, you're all Christian and part Spanish/Portu, but any "camaraderie" you see there is a completely one-way street--the people in Europe do NOT feel that way mutually about you, even if they don't get as violent about it as in the US. You could MAYBE make an exception for Argentina and Uruguay because it seems a lot of them (still not all) are close enough on racial criteria to "pass" visually. Places like Mexico and Colombia will never be western, because you can't be part of a group if your people get hatecrimed on sight (with no repercussions) in said countries .
there's some Indian American kid (same skin tone as the average Colombian or Peruvian) who got put in a chokehold at his school in Texas and then suspended for 3 days while his bully got 1 day (no he didn't even fight back)
this happened in suburban Texas btw, I know people whose friends have been killed in rural areas of the plains states.
No, I think Latin America has more in common with itself. Tons of countries in Asia and Africa (basically every country) has significant and sometimes complete fluency in a European language, and are Christian, but not considered Western.
Not to mention that many Latin American countries and subregions have huge cultural influences from regional Native American cultures and enslaved Africans
Latin America has never received economic benefits from the Western umbrella in the way that the EU states have. And they probably never will, and their racial origin is the most major reason for this. They are not Western.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn't make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it's inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life. Our religions have been westernized, our mode of production is capitalism, our cultural references are western cultural products, our music is dependent on western notions of what is "good" music. The products that we buy and we sell, that we most value are influenced by westernized perceptions of value.
Yes, there are bubbles, territories, regions, where this is not true, maybe even glimpses in everyday life, but it's not the case for the vast majority of people living in Latin America. We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn't make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it's inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life.
I'm going to paste what I said in another comment replying to another user just because it mostly applies here too.
Look, neither you or I get to define what "the West" means. It is a racist concept, but that's the unfortunate reality of the situation. "The West" is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it's defined by the material reality of exploitation. It's nearly synonymous with "Imperial Core." If you're in the periphery, you are not part of "The West" no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they're exploiting it! It's not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can't deny material reality, and it seems like that's what you're trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it's largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group "Western" and who doesn't.
We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
Absolutely. So you do see it is "The West" that unfortunately gets to define who belongs in the club, and it does so via violence. The West has violently created the world you live in, but that does not make the world you live in part of it, no matter how many people around you mistakenly think it does.
If it has been “westernized” then you are basically admitting right there it is not the west.
Yes, much of the world has been colonized and injected with white supremacist ideology, ie “westernized”. That doesn’t make much of the world “The West”
it doesn't make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it's inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life.
wrong, it's the UTMOST FUNDAMENTAL basis upon which to change your lives
if Latinos can't even agree that they are their own bloc, then how do you expect change to ever occur? Imagine if China was 20 different countries, with squabbles about the North being "uhhh totally Mongol/Russian acktschyually" do you think they would have ended up better or worse materially? Obviously a lot worse!
why is India doing better than Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka etc? Why do they have 300 nukes and a space program?
Because it's a union of smaller countries like Punjab Tamil Nadu Kerala and etc. India is still bad, but if there were a communist revolution there, there's nothing the West could do! While in a small country like Niger or Kenya, they can just overthrow it easily!
and if the Indian nation-states (meaning Punjab and Kerala and Maharashtra and Assam) can unite, there's no reason that Latin American countries can't do so. The Indian ones have 4-10k years of uninterrupted history and ethnic differentiation, so I think a continent where everybody already speaks Spanish and Portuguese can manage the same thing
Also: if an average person from your bloc can get hatecrimed on sight in another country with no repercussions then guess what? that country is not a part of your bloc! Neither geopolitically NOR ethnoculturally! basic logic!
it’s a majority protestant country that speaks spanish. you think it has more in common with east asia or muslim countries or something?
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the phillipines speaks over 100 malayo-polynessian languages and zambia speaks a similar number of bantu languages. neither of them speak english as a primary language nor do they have the same connection to the west that latin america does
Nah, they speak lots of English there. Being colonized they do have rather similar relations
they speak lots of english in vietnam doesn’t make vietnam western. and there are different types and styles of colonization and imperialism it’s not just a one mode thing
a ton of Black Americans also have predominantly European ancestors, I guess racism is solved since they're all "western" right?
You can cope or bloviate all you want about this stuff, but real white people know the score and are playing the game. If you're pale with at least brown hair and have an American accent then sure, you pass regardless of what your ancestry is
The "West" is and HAS to be a racial concept, because if it weren't basically half if not the majority of the world could be considered Western and the term would just be meaningless. The racial concept is also in accordance with how westerners (actual ones) act.
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I was disagreeing with this part of yours:
This is not bizarre at all.
Uruguay and Argentina are exceptions. The average person in most South American countries save Uruguay, Argentina, and southern Brazil have close to 50% Euro admixture. In some countries like Peru, Bolivia, and others, it's lower than 25%. And in some of those countries they still speak Native American languages in significant parts.
This Euro admixture comes entirely from southern Europe. Italian Americans were discriminated well into the 1990s (possibly even now), while Irish Americans lost their stigma in the 1930s. Looks matter. And South Americans' European ancestry comes from an already visibly darker population (Spanish rather than Germans/Anglos)
,
Also: Europeans have predominantly Middle Eastern ancestors. They're literally 60% Middle Eastern by blood (on average--it's closer to 80% in Southern Europe). However, they got extra depigmented due to dark climates and mixture with northern aboriginals. Guess what? They look different, so they are able to do racism based on these physical differences. Hence, European and Middle Eastern are different blocs, despite the former being majority derived from the latter.
Guess who also looks different from Europeans? Every single Latino population, yes even the Argentinians. Despite them being derived from Europeans, they are not European. It is visually obvious that they are not European, even if they are majority European DNA. And so racism can be done to them. And so they cannot ever be considered part of the same bloc.
And yes, there are technically "white Argentinians", this is irrelevant. Only 30% of Argentinians (I'm spitballing here) look unnoticable from a US white person to me.
I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I've always considered our countries part of the West and think it's a little patronizing how richer Western nations don't consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we're majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We're kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we're included as Western or not.
Don't you think that if your people are treated as second-class citizens in core Western countries, that you might actually NOT be Western in the eyes of anyone who actually cares about these terms?
Like, why can't you take the hint? Or have you really not figured it out yet?
The patronization is right on cue
How is observing reality patronizing? Why do you be want to considered "Western" so bad? Why can't you just be happy being Latin American?
person a: "you're dumb"
person b: "wow I've always noticed that my friend is so patronizing to me?"
person c: "uh maybe they're not actually your friend then"
person b: "wow your patronization is right on cue"
You are person b. I am c.
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You're free to have whatever thoughts you want, just don't expect to be treated like an actual Westerner when you enter an actual Western country
*unless you're really pale and can speak with an American accent. Then you will be!
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So because compradors weaponize those western values instilled via colonialism, they should embrace those values? Define themselves by it? I don't know how you see the relationship of compradors re-inforcing white supremacy and "western values" and don't buck them off and reject them and seek to destroy them. Instead, you argue online with western leftists who want to see the west destroyed? Instead you embrace those colonizer's values as the TRUE IDENTITY of your country? WTF.
You are inverting everything and glorifying colonization. This "honduran comrade" is essentially making the exact same arguments as his comprador masters want him to, fully internalizing the colonizing values and making it part of their identity.
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If they are a communist and understand history of colonialism then they wouldn't see themselves as western nor would they want to see themselves as western. They would see their country as "westernized" by outside, imperialist forces - and they must decolonize and "de-westernize"
It's not "antagonizing" someone to just plainly and clearly state the truth of their peripheral status and that the imperial core would eat them alive in a second if they felt like it. Any allegiance or camaraderie they feel with "the west" is entirely one-sided and in their own mind and they must be disabused of this fantasy. Pathetic for any communist to really hold these views, makes it sound like they would be little different from their comprador masters in practice - trying to suck up to the west for membership still, still being good house slaves and running dogs. I only trust people who hate the West, want to distance themselves from it, destroy it, and purge it from their societies. Wanting to be included in "the West" to me is basically class treason, especially to start making white supremacist adjacent argument about how "The West" means Ancient Greece, and there's nothing inherently racist about the Greeks so modern day "West" also isn't racist just another grouping of peoples.
This is chauvinistic delusion that any communist should be ashamed to think. Then to try and shame us for being racist when they have so internalized Western white supremacy is another layer on top.
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They don’t consider you part of their racist white supremacist club, that’s a fact. Why do you want to be in it so bad and consider it offensive when they don’t include you? It should be an honor to be separate from the West, the West TM is fascist scum
I'm palestinian honduran so I wouldn't even bother trying to argue with the few people I'd run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don't see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don't get the point in bashing anyway I'm not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
Leftists have already figured out the difference between these regions, if you're curious. The Balkans are peripheral Europe. https://hexbear.net/post/1385667
Western can be a misnomer like global south. Half the time when I say NATO I'm mentally including Japan and Australia and occupied Korea. Japan and occupied Korea are pretty damn Western now depending on how you mean that.
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those "few people", aka the entirety of the population who actually cares about this shit lmao. Including the cunning ones who pretend to consider you guys "western" just for optics, and then support every standard right-wing American position
Nobody considers Christian, Portugese-speaking Angola to be "Western". Race is literally half the criteria.
uhhh...because it matters to american rightists? If you spent a few months in America in a rural area with an Islamic name I think you'd learn pretty quick
"Western" = politically western European, and white
Russia isn't politically western so they don't fit
Poland used to not be western, but now is
Parts of the Balkans are part of the west (certainly not in the core though)
Japan and Korea are rich and vassal states of NATO, but are not white
America is technically mixed race, but the average white American is 98.5% white (and western european to boot), unlike any "white" person in any Latin country where even the least mixed people are still 20% Native admixed
Nothing in Latin America is Western in any sense other than cardinal directions. Yes, you're all Christian and part Spanish/Portu, but any "camaraderie" you see there is a completely one-way street--the people in Europe do NOT feel that way mutually about you, even if they don't get as violent about it as in the US. You could MAYBE make an exception for Argentina and Uruguay because it seems a lot of them (still not all) are close enough on racial criteria to "pass" visually. Places like Mexico and Colombia will never be western, because you can't be part of a group if your people get hatecrimed on sight (with no repercussions) in said countries .
i’ve been to rural america with an “islamic name” lol. you people are crazy
apparently not for long enough?
there's some Indian American kid (same skin tone as the average Colombian or Peruvian) who got put in a chokehold at his school in Texas and then suspended for 3 days while his bully got 1 day (no he didn't even fight back)
this happened in suburban Texas btw, I know people whose friends have been killed in rural areas of the plains states.
No, I think Latin America has more in common with itself. Tons of countries in Asia and Africa (basically every country) has significant and sometimes complete fluency in a European language, and are Christian, but not considered Western.
Not to mention that many Latin American countries and subregions have huge cultural influences from regional Native American cultures and enslaved Africans
Latin America has never received economic benefits from the Western umbrella in the way that the EU states have. And they probably never will, and their racial origin is the most major reason for this. They are not Western.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn't make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it's inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life. Our religions have been westernized, our mode of production is capitalism, our cultural references are western cultural products, our music is dependent on western notions of what is "good" music. The products that we buy and we sell, that we most value are influenced by westernized perceptions of value.
Yes, there are bubbles, territories, regions, where this is not true, maybe even glimpses in everyday life, but it's not the case for the vast majority of people living in Latin America. We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
I'm going to paste what I said in another comment replying to another user just because it mostly applies here too.
Look, neither you or I get to define what "the West" means. It is a racist concept, but that's the unfortunate reality of the situation. "The West" is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it's defined by the material reality of exploitation. It's nearly synonymous with "Imperial Core." If you're in the periphery, you are not part of "The West" no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they're exploiting it! It's not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can't deny material reality, and it seems like that's what you're trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it's largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group "Western" and who doesn't.
Absolutely. So you do see it is "The West" that unfortunately gets to define who belongs in the club, and it does so via violence. The West has violently created the world you live in, but that does not make the world you live in part of it, no matter how many people around you mistakenly think it does.
If it has been “westernized” then you are basically admitting right there it is not the west.
Yes, much of the world has been colonized and injected with white supremacist ideology, ie “westernized”. That doesn’t make much of the world “The West”
wrong, it's the UTMOST FUNDAMENTAL basis upon which to change your lives
if Latinos can't even agree that they are their own bloc, then how do you expect change to ever occur? Imagine if China was 20 different countries, with squabbles about the North being "uhhh totally Mongol/Russian acktschyually" do you think they would have ended up better or worse materially? Obviously a lot worse!
why is India doing better than Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka etc? Why do they have 300 nukes and a space program?
Because it's a union of smaller countries like Punjab Tamil Nadu Kerala and etc. India is still bad, but if there were a communist revolution there, there's nothing the West could do! While in a small country like Niger or Kenya, they can just overthrow it easily!
and if the Indian nation-states (meaning Punjab and Kerala and Maharashtra and Assam) can unite, there's no reason that Latin American countries can't do so. The Indian ones have 4-10k years of uninterrupted history and ethnic differentiation, so I think a continent where everybody already speaks Spanish and Portuguese can manage the same thing
This is a conflation of different uses of the term western. There's cultural, economic, and geographic definitions for it, etc.
Also: if an average person from your bloc can get hatecrimed on sight in another country with no repercussions then guess what? that country is not a part of your bloc! Neither geopolitically NOR ethnoculturally! basic logic!
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According to US policy more like the middle east yeah.