I have been having this debate with multiple western leftist whom I vigorously despise, and it was about people who commit crimes against humanity, and it is very simple really in my point of view people who did unhuman acts (light upholding apartheid, genocide, cleansing, starting an international War) are by definition unhuman. Really simple actually they have took the humanity away from people and used that as an excuse and they sacrifice their own humanity in The Pursuit of that goal therefore morally at least these people should be counted as dangerous animals or the malaria or whatever unhuman living creature who is causing us mass suffering and death. On the other hand you have the Western liberal who think that they are leftist simply because they don't care if gay people fack, and these people directly benefit from the unhuman acts that their leaders commit, so they turn and blind eye to it or at most say that they are bad people who should be jailed, jail for Bush or Clinton or Kissinger or Putin or whoever does not solve the problem, you talk a lot about prison reform and how it is cruel what you have not seen the other angle which is that these people physically cannot pay back for their crimes within a million lifetimes, I don't really care about your personal moralities and bullshit that you say to be the most moral in the room restorative justice cannot occur because these people have committed such crimes that they have left the boundary of restoring what they have done, to the point of being unhuman. When people understand that there is no way that would have been taken from them would be restored they want Justice in any way shape or facking form, including leaving all morality aside and just severely punishing those who have committed these unhuman acts.
You can moralize but for me as a person who lives in Iraq when I hear what people would want to do to George Bush or jog Biden or Barack Obama or whom ever I hear the most descriptive forms of torture, and the reason for that is that these people have actually came to to moral clarity, because the forms of brutal killings and torture that they would want to commit are the same as those who have been committed by these unhumans, when restorative justice fails, when there is no way shape or form your oppressors can be punished that would actually restore what they have been breaking you break their stuff in the same way, but in such subject, where these people have violated your right not to be tortured and not to be killed and not to be humiliated the retaliation must not be lesser than the pain that they have put upon every single person that they have violated their rights of. Do not f****** come to me with your Lefty morals or your Western human standard saying that war criminals and unhuman actors should be not tortured or should it be not brutally murdered, These people are not human.
I worry that torturing people will damage the psyche of the torturer. The most important thing is to take the bad people out of the picture to stop the material damage they do to peoples lives. A swift death, I just want capitalists to fuck off forever at this point. I just want peoples lives to improve and the Earth to stop dying. That's all I care about anymore.
What you don't need to have a torturer you just need to put Hillary Clinton in Baghdad for three days and she will die from torture because we will kill her, and you say that because for you all you have experienced from capitalism is exploitation from the capitalist class, for others they saw their friends and family members getting exploded in to bits, you don't really need to avenge for anything really but for me I will never be satisfied until we can actually harm those who have harmed us, same goes for the logic of October the 7th to an extent
When you put it that way, I can see your point. I've never seen a family member violently rended, and I don't know what I'd do if I did. I imagine I'd feel the same way.
Hell, even if it wasn't a family member, I would be horrified. It's bad enough watching peoples spirit slowly die under capitalism, if I had to see them shot or bombed, I think I'd lose it.
what part of torturing them is justice and how does that do anything besides making whoever does it a torturer?
i don't mean that i care about the suffering of monsters, i care about what it makes us if we do monstrous things.
killing is fair game of course, although if you have enough infrastructure and institutional power to do something else and make them clean literal shit off of the ground with their bare hands instead you should.
I can easily explain to you why torture, and it's basically because it with alleviate the feelings for those who have been wronged, when Saddam got murdered by the American state people were not satisfied they needed him to suffer as much as they have suffered which is in the eyes of those who have suffered Justice enough. Ignoring the victims just because you can moralize from a far away place how they should act is not material thinking, you again sadly moralize the wrongness that have been inflicted upon people and them wanting to wrong them back, you would say I want Elon Musk and Jeff bezos to work in a factory or a genitarial job, that is you taking a revenge upon them from the same kind of wrongness they have wronged you
i haven't moralized yet. i want to know how anything being described is justice?
how is their suffering justice? The justice component of putting the oligarch to work in a factory is that the factory work actually contributes to society, not to force bezos to piss in bottles for the rest of his life. Puyi should've had the right to a street sweepers' union.
killing them isn't even about justice or punishment, it's about preventing them from continuing to do harm.
Will again you are stepping at the point the point is that he justice in torturing and killing them is that it would bring satisfaction to those that they harmed
if it will lead to the ppl fealing satisfide and that they have taken reveng then be it
and people who would do unhuman things deserve to get that satisfaction?
no, by definition they are unhuman in such way that they do not deserve anything from the society that they have harmed.
And let me say this for you to be living in the West is for you to not understand the reasons behind such statements, in the end of the day you have not been genocided nor ethnically cleansed nor puts in present for five years and been tortured in such manner that makes you feel as if you are unhuman to them, after an experience like that you will get out and you are necessarily gain a be looking at yourself as a lesser as unhuman , the reason for these actions is two fold, first is to show you that your oppressors the actual humans the ables of doing harm and good to you her as much of human as you are, and the second is to make you understand that there will be no more oppression, that you will not exist in a world that does not avenge you, and that's the point, dehumanizing them would bring about in the eyes of their victims justice fairness and satisfaction of mind that they would not be harmed again and their enemies go unharmed
no, i mean don't the people who would perform torture, making themselves inhuman, lose the grounds by which they deserve satisfaction?
Yeah that is like a very semantic approach to it and my opinion would be that after you charge somebody with crimes against humanity you send them to the people who they have wronged and they would deal with it, people should not get involved with that decision.
