So, all of this is coming from another confused person, so idk if it helps at all, but its just my own thoughts after doing my own soul-searching (and therapy).
There's quite a few aspects to gender. There's the cultural aspect; obviously different depending on where you live. Part of that is the societal expectations, which for your personal introspection, aren't really relevant, but may (unfortunately) be a consideration for maintaining a livelihood.
And then adjacent to that is the feeling of being a man. You ask for definitions, but there isn't one. Genders aren't real, in the sense that its a discrete thing with a firm definition. Its more Platonic, a vague concept that doesn't really exist, but things in our world may lean toward or away from . However, I'd say unlike Plato, that there isn't really even one Platonic Male Ideal, but rather everyone has their own Ideal of Manhood and Womanhood, all subtly different from each others and also sometimes changing depending on influences.
If you're a person who is unaware of this, or do think about it, your idea of manhood is going to mostly be shaped just by your influences; it'll be probably cobbled together from your parents, your friends, your culture, and the media you consume.
However, if you are aware of it, it can be whatever you want, provided its something you can 'convince' yourself 'feels right'. If your ideal of manhood you shape yourself after is too different from those around you, you may be judged for it, and have people disagree, but like, fuck em.
For me personally, what feels right to me is to dig through both my cobbled mess of culture Manhood and Womanhood, pick out which aspects feel right to me, and incorporate those into my self, and say fuck it to picking a gender, even though for how I present and hold myself, society will generally treat me as male. Which for me is fine, its not something I feel strongly about either way.
So, for example, you can pick your Manliness to be: Physicallity, Stoicism, and Self-Reliance, and strive for that, and be a self actualized man. Or you could choose: Honor, Leadership, and Fatherhood. Or say: Intuitive, Caring, and quietly observant. And while I say choose, you probably can't convince yourself of something that feels wrong or unmanly to you, although it can be hard to tease out what feels wrong because it doesn't fit you, vs. what feels wrong because of internalized Toxic Masculinity.
And lastly of course is fitting these Platonic Ideals into your Self; your personality, self-perception, and presentation, as well as your daily life, in ways that are practical and healthy. There's not clear answers, beyond the obvious like "don't be an asshole", but it does require introspection to pick apart instincts and impressions vs reality.
I know personally, I struggle a lot with feeling 'emotionless', and thinking that was because I didn't feel the emotions, but it turned out when I say "I don't get angry", what it really was was me feeling and expressing anger differently from the people I saw around me. Which gave me a bad case of "Rationalist", where I convinced myself my decisions were made unemotionally, and therefore more objectively. I don't know if I buried my emotions because of learned toxic masculinity, or if its just how I am, or if I'm somewhat Schizoid (fwiw I am diagnosed on the Schizophrenia spectrum), but either way, my emotions are still there, just expressed less that it seems like most people, and I need to work harder to figure out my emotions on A Thing sometimes.
And then adjacent to that is the feeling of being a man. You ask for definitions, but there isn’t one. Genders aren’t real, in the sense that its a discrete thing with a firm definition. Its more Platonic, a vague concept that doesn’t really exist, but things in our world may lean toward or away from . However, I’d say unlike Plato, that there isn’t really even one Platonic Male Ideal, but rather everyone has their own Ideal of Manhood and Womanhood, all subtly different from each others and also sometimes changing depending on influences.
Yeah, I've been wondering myself that. I definitely feel like a man, though, even if I can't define it.
If you’re a person who is unaware of this, or do think about it, your idea of manhood is going to mostly be shaped just by your influences; it’ll be probably cobbled together from your parents, your friends, your culture, and the media you consume.
However, if you are aware of it, it can be whatever you want, provided its something you can ‘convince’ yourself ‘feels right’. If your ideal of manhood you shape yourself after is too different from those around you, you may be judged for it, and have people disagree, but like, fuck em.
You know what? Yeah, fuck em. I get to choose what it means to me. Continuing to this point:
So, for example, you can pick your Manliness to be: Physicallity, Stoicism, and Self-Reliance, and strive for that, and be a self actualized man. Or you could choose: Honor, Leadership, and Fatherhood. Or say: Intuitive, Caring, and quietly observant. And while I say choose, you probably can’t convince yourself of something that feels wrong or unmanly to you, although it can be hard to tease out what feels wrong because it doesn’t fit you, vs. what feels wrong because of internalized Toxic Masculinity.
To me, and I'm typing this from the heart and applying it to me, a man can be strong, can be caring, can be supportive, can be a strong rock others can hold on to. But he can also be vulnerable, lean on others, seek out their own support. A man can bake, can act, can work out, can wear what he wants, love who he wants, express himself how he wants, DO what feels right to him. And he should always know that there may be people who disagree. But all dudes should know that there will be equal or more people who are cool with that.
Okay, maybe that's not a firm definition? Truthfully, it mostly felt right to me and was meant to help me.
And lastly of course is fitting these Platonic Ideals into your Self; your personality, self-perception, and presentation, as well as your daily life, in ways that are practical and healthy.
Yeah, so I guess I ought to more firmly 'define those terms', as they say. Still, I have a good starting point.
I know personally, I struggle a lot with feeling ‘emotionless’, and thinking that was because I didn’t feel the emotions, but it turned out when I say “I don’t get angry”, what it really was was me feeling and expressing anger differently from the people I saw around me.
I 100% get that, used to feel exactly that way about myself, had the exact same revelation as well. :solidarity:
So, all of this is coming from another confused person, so idk if it helps at all, but its just my own thoughts after doing my own soul-searching (and therapy).
There's quite a few aspects to gender. There's the cultural aspect; obviously different depending on where you live. Part of that is the societal expectations, which for your personal introspection, aren't really relevant, but may (unfortunately) be a consideration for maintaining a livelihood.
And then adjacent to that is the feeling of being a man. You ask for definitions, but there isn't one. Genders aren't real, in the sense that its a discrete thing with a firm definition. Its more Platonic, a vague concept that doesn't really exist, but things in our world may lean toward or away from . However, I'd say unlike Plato, that there isn't really even one Platonic Male Ideal, but rather everyone has their own Ideal of Manhood and Womanhood, all subtly different from each others and also sometimes changing depending on influences.
If you're a person who is unaware of this, or do think about it, your idea of manhood is going to mostly be shaped just by your influences; it'll be probably cobbled together from your parents, your friends, your culture, and the media you consume.
However, if you are aware of it, it can be whatever you want, provided its something you can 'convince' yourself 'feels right'. If your ideal of manhood you shape yourself after is too different from those around you, you may be judged for it, and have people disagree, but like, fuck em.
For me personally, what feels right to me is to dig through both my cobbled mess of culture Manhood and Womanhood, pick out which aspects feel right to me, and incorporate those into my self, and say fuck it to picking a gender, even though for how I present and hold myself, society will generally treat me as male. Which for me is fine, its not something I feel strongly about either way.
So, for example, you can pick your Manliness to be: Physicallity, Stoicism, and Self-Reliance, and strive for that, and be a self actualized man. Or you could choose: Honor, Leadership, and Fatherhood. Or say: Intuitive, Caring, and quietly observant. And while I say choose, you probably can't convince yourself of something that feels wrong or unmanly to you, although it can be hard to tease out what feels wrong because it doesn't fit you, vs. what feels wrong because of internalized Toxic Masculinity.
And lastly of course is fitting these Platonic Ideals into your Self; your personality, self-perception, and presentation, as well as your daily life, in ways that are practical and healthy. There's not clear answers, beyond the obvious like "don't be an asshole", but it does require introspection to pick apart instincts and impressions vs reality.
I know personally, I struggle a lot with feeling 'emotionless', and thinking that was because I didn't feel the emotions, but it turned out when I say "I don't get angry", what it really was was me feeling and expressing anger differently from the people I saw around me. Which gave me a bad case of "Rationalist", where I convinced myself my decisions were made unemotionally, and therefore more objectively. I don't know if I buried my emotions because of learned toxic masculinity, or if its just how I am, or if I'm somewhat Schizoid (fwiw I am diagnosed on the Schizophrenia spectrum), but either way, my emotions are still there, just expressed less that it seems like most people, and I need to work harder to figure out my emotions on A Thing sometimes.
just reading along as an enby who struggles with finding good masc role models, this is a really good post :)
Yeah, I've been wondering myself that. I definitely feel like a man, though, even if I can't define it.
You know what? Yeah, fuck em. I get to choose what it means to me. Continuing to this point:
To me, and I'm typing this from the heart and applying it to me, a man can be strong, can be caring, can be supportive, can be a strong rock others can hold on to. But he can also be vulnerable, lean on others, seek out their own support. A man can bake, can act, can work out, can wear what he wants, love who he wants, express himself how he wants, DO what feels right to him. And he should always know that there may be people who disagree. But all dudes should know that there will be equal or more people who are cool with that.
Okay, maybe that's not a firm definition? Truthfully, it mostly felt right to me and was meant to help me.
Yeah, so I guess I ought to more firmly 'define those terms', as they say. Still, I have a good starting point.
I 100% get that, used to feel exactly that way about myself, had the exact same revelation as well. :solidarity: