https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2021/09/30/iippe-2021-imperialism-china-and-finance/

from yesterdays thread, we got this paper floating which argues that there isnt an argument for imperialism. we'll take it from there. also I'd love to see more material supporting this stance!

to me, the author of the linked paper doesnt really answer the question.

the text says middle rank economies arent or cant be subimperialist? unclear how they support this claim.

  • they cite a study showing china as in between imperialist and imperialized

  • their own UE index shows a massive decrease of outflow in china in the last 20 years compared to earlier. this dosnt conflict with the argument that china might be imperialist, because its the recent shift to capital export that we look at here.

author then they later say “imperialist economies and the rest is not narrowing – on the contrary. And that includes China, which will not join the imperialist club.” - how does make sense with the above then?

the linked ppt seems to compute imperialism in total trade. noone is arguing china is imperialist against the west, but this calculation masks the argument of a potential “subimperialism”, in China’s global south trade, because this is a small share of China’s total trade. so we’re not left with any conclusion about “sub-imperialism” or whatever you will call these countries that have net outflows to the old west, but exploit the global south in their own right. this could include overseas China economy, turkey?, the gulf, malaysia. etc.

  • comi [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    I think just from population size china is unlikely to become strictly imperialist. As well as technological backwardness is kinda sketchy argument to me. Yes, china can’t make latest computer chips and chip designer software (as I’ve read) being somewhat dodgy, but what is the rest of backward technology? I think they can make other high tech stuff, maybe 5-10 year backward, but not too bad

    I’m more interested if someone has calculated gross rate of profit in marxist sense across all countries tbh, as far as I know not yet.

    I’ll watch the panel you linked though :meow-tankie:

    My short reasoning is that without knowing average rate of exploitation across countries, it’s meaningless to look at structures of imports/exports of china and trying to glean something from them

    • cokedupchavez [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      it’s meaningless to look at structures of imports/exports of china and trying to glean something from them

      i agree. for me it comes down to precision in debate with for example critical african marxists.

      also the panel i linked doesnt have anything to do with the above argument. i just linked it because it introduces some scholars who are writing in imperialism today, which im trying to compile with these names. panel also includes bellamy foster, the main dude at monthly review. communist nerds version of a superstar

      • comi [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        But it has john smith :meow-fiesta:

      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Taiwanese companies, which (IIRC) operate factories on the mainland. The know-how and IP, though, is regrettably in Taipei.

          • LeninWeave [none/use name]
            ·
            3 years ago

            My understanding is TSMC is at the top of the industry, currently. China can fab, but not as well. For instance, that article is about the 28 nm to 14 nm nodes, and TSMC is at something like 5 nm. The node sizes don't really mean all that much, but it's a general indication at least.

              • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that's what keeps it all going. No one wants the industry to crash. For instance, if China shut down TSMC, they'd have a shortage of processors they really need for research.

                Kind of makes me wonder, with the chip shortage, of China’s desire to dive head-first into a tech driven society and their desire to catch up in chips is going to play a role in the coming Cold War.

                100% yes. It's already started with the Huawei thing.

                • SolidaritySplodarity [they/them]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  In the short term, China could nationalize the fabs and limit exports, creating an effect like shutting them down for the rest of the world while increasing local supply.

                  Not that this is a good idea.

      • comi [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        From tsmc and samsung? And soon, maybe, intel in arizona. Simc is on 14 nm, asml can’t sell to china, and designer software is heavily restricted to mainland as well