where do these people hallucinate these ideas from? You read Lenin and outside of capitalists the people he hates the most are who he calls national chauvinists.
they'd have a point if they were talking about like 1930s Europe. The fascists then would scoop up socialist party members by arguing fascism could be more efficient at delivering the same goals. So a good number of fascists were former socialists in that case. I think there's one statistic that the Bavarian branch of the Nazis were majority former KPD members.
A lot of people back then must have misidentified the threat of fascism. All the racist aspects must have seemed much more normal back then, or rather, being explicitly racist didn't sound much different than any other party
I see this same echo-chamber conversations happening all the time on places like Va*sh's subreddit - "Hey guys, I know that none of you are what we call tankies and virtually none of you ever were (with the exception of a couple of people LARPing as model apostates and maybe one or two "Wow, cool flag!!" tankies) but I was wondering if you can fanfic me some armchair psychologizing about what the values, beliefs, and motivations of this group of people are for me so we can all congratulate ourselves on agreeing with eachother"
Like, they could just ask a tankie. They could observe tankies in their natural habitat (screengrabs of the worst takes posted into r/TankieJerk do not count). They could actually read and engage with the literature that tankies tend to agree as being critical.
But no. They just want neat little stories that reaffirm their biases and which require no effort and no introspection.
I used to be an anarchist for a very long time, longer than some of these types have been alive for, and I can speak their language if they ever bother to engage with me in a respectful way. To be entirely honest, I really loathe talking to anarchists and the libertarian left but not for any of the reasons you'd expect - it's because I know their arguments, I know their takes on history, I know their values because I was one of them and I know that if I managed to make myself into an ML through careful investigation that I'd be able to do the same by talking with others and, tbh, it's a horrible experience having the paradigm that you engage with the world dismantled before your eyes. I wouldn't wish it on others and I certainly don't have the capacity to do the pastoral care or midwifery for someone who is going through this process but at the same time I wouldn't want to just wreck their shit and abandon them to the mess either because that's how you create doomers, fascists, and statistics out of people. I'd much rather be surrounded by completely ideologically-committed anarchists than a bunch of nihilistic ex-anarchist doomers who are completely paralysed because they have nothing that they believe in anymore; that only serves the interests of capital and the forces of reaction.
All the claims they make about tankies do not describe me:
I'm not young or naive
I'm far from being power hungry and I still strongly dislike wielding any actual authority
I'm not a simp for any old dictator
I don't engage in blind apologism for atrocities commited by communist parties
I don't like the state
I didn't come to be an ML because I think the flags are cool or through absorbing Red Army propaganda
I don't like Putin and I think that his claims of denazification are a just cynical justification for a geopolitical manoeuvre to curb the encroachment of NATO, although there are a lot of Ukrainian fascists being chewed up by the Russian army
I'm not a blind China simp
I don't accept anything that comes draped in a red flag - I have no love for Pol Pot, for Gonzalo, or PatSocs etc.
I'm not some book worshipper
I actually engage in activism in my real life
I don't own a Mao suit or a ushanka
I've read a decent amount of theory. More anarchist than communist. I've read a decent amount of history. I didn't just stumble into my current political position accidentally or through some sort of opportunistic desire to achieve my own personal or societal goals - none of me actually wanted to renounce anarchism, I still wish that I saw it as a viable path, and I don't think many people know how hard it is to abandon a worldview when you've invested a huge amount of time, effort, identity, and social connection into it.
Sometimes I entertain ideas of going into these sorts of discussions and having an open dialogue but then I remember how blinkered these people are, how desperate they are to have their preconceived ideas reaffirmed, and how inconsequential they are by virtue of their grass-deficiency.
where do these people hallucinate these ideas from? You read Lenin and outside of capitalists the people he hates the most are who he calls national chauvinists.
they'd have a point if they were talking about like 1930s Europe. The fascists then would scoop up socialist party members by arguing fascism could be more efficient at delivering the same goals. So a good number of fascists were former socialists in that case. I think there's one statistic that the Bavarian branch of the Nazis were majority former KPD members.
A lot of people back then must have misidentified the threat of fascism. All the racist aspects must have seemed much more normal back then, or rather, being explicitly racist didn't sound much different than any other party
I swear it's a case of being terminally online.
I see this same echo-chamber conversations happening all the time on places like Va*sh's subreddit - "Hey guys, I know that none of you are what we call tankies and virtually none of you ever were (with the exception of a couple of people LARPing as model apostates and maybe one or two "Wow, cool flag!!" tankies) but I was wondering if you can fanfic me some armchair psychologizing about what the values, beliefs, and motivations of this group of people are for me so we can all congratulate ourselves on agreeing with eachother"
Like, they could just ask a tankie. They could observe tankies in their natural habitat (screengrabs of the worst takes posted into r/TankieJerk do not count). They could actually read and engage with the literature that tankies tend to agree as being critical.
But no. They just want neat little stories that reaffirm their biases and which require no effort and no introspection.
I used to be an anarchist for a very long time, longer than some of these types have been alive for, and I can speak their language if they ever bother to engage with me in a respectful way. To be entirely honest, I really loathe talking to anarchists and the libertarian left but not for any of the reasons you'd expect - it's because I know their arguments, I know their takes on history, I know their values because I was one of them and I know that if I managed to make myself into an ML through careful investigation that I'd be able to do the same by talking with others and, tbh, it's a horrible experience having the paradigm that you engage with the world dismantled before your eyes. I wouldn't wish it on others and I certainly don't have the capacity to do the pastoral care or midwifery for someone who is going through this process but at the same time I wouldn't want to just wreck their shit and abandon them to the mess either because that's how you create doomers, fascists, and statistics out of people. I'd much rather be surrounded by completely ideologically-committed anarchists than a bunch of nihilistic ex-anarchist doomers who are completely paralysed because they have nothing that they believe in anymore; that only serves the interests of capital and the forces of reaction.
All the claims they make about tankies do not describe me:
I've read a decent amount of theory. More anarchist than communist. I've read a decent amount of history. I didn't just stumble into my current political position accidentally or through some sort of opportunistic desire to achieve my own personal or societal goals - none of me actually wanted to renounce anarchism, I still wish that I saw it as a viable path, and I don't think many people know how hard it is to abandon a worldview when you've invested a huge amount of time, effort, identity, and social connection into it.
Sometimes I entertain ideas of going into these sorts of discussions and having an open dialogue but then I remember how blinkered these people are, how desperate they are to have their preconceived ideas reaffirmed, and how inconsequential they are by virtue of their grass-deficiency.