In my video chat with my friends (a bunch of dudes in mid 20s to early 30s) this week, a friend show off his collection of books he read over the past year. A total of 31 books from scifi novels, literary classics, political theory, outdoors/nature books, and car maintenance. Which got use discussing how we'd all probably "should" (I mean this in the least reactionary way possible) read more. We then started discussing other things we all "should" and things we all "should" know as men. Then we all kinda circled back to so much of the "man-o-sphere" is like half a step away from some real regressive and slimeball mindsets across the spectrum. Then we on to our evening gaming session (we are getting back into RTS and played 2v2 sets of Dawn of War, we are all very bad at the game).
However, it got me thinking that there is probably some value in me knowing how fix the sink or whatever. One friend mentioned he'd love to learn and do more, but everything is so cheap so much is meant to be replaced, it doesn't make sense to learn how to maintain them. Personally I find the idea of self-sufficiency (in the least "rugged man/classical masculinity" online cosplay-y way possible) to be dope, but I find that trying to learn that sort of stuff brings you into proximity of lots of nasty ideology.
Personally I think it's rad a working-class guy like my friend has time to be so well-read and manages to find time for "bettering" (again, I find this wordage to be a bit lib-y in the sense it's often used to make oneself more marketable or whatever) himself without falling into a "12 Rules For Life" sorta trap. I'd love to improve my "manliness" but would like to do so without all the toxicity of the antiquated archetypical stuff.
Sorry this doesn't make a ton of sense. Typing on my lunch break. My question, I guess, is what are some "traditional" values you think are worth "returning to" without the gross underlying traits that make them quickly turn conservative nonsense.
Short answer, "no, probably not."
Longer answer... cultures change over time. For better or worse. So as the present moves farther and farther away from the past we can take what we want from those yesterdays and bring them with us until they aren't useful anymore. And there will always (probably) be people who will fetishize something about the past and create an identity it.
... “traditional” values you think are worth “returning to” without the gross underlying traits that make them quickly turn conservative nonsense.
The closest thing i can think of, which probably isn't actually a traditional value, is just teaching what you know to others around you. My dad drove semi-trucks for most of his life so he probably knew a thing or two about vehicle maintenance, but made zero effort to teach me any of it. My mom was really good with doing budgeting and stuff, but made no effort to teach me any of that growing up.
Both of them seemed to assume either 1) I wouldn't need to know it or 2) somebody else would teach me how. Turns out both of those assumptions are wrong.
My spontaneous reaction is that maybe the baby has been in the bathwater for so long that it's poisoned. The only thing you need brute strength for is turning a wrench sometime. None of this is inherently "manly". It's just knowledge that is good to have for any person. You could try to balance out by learning to read laundry labels too ;)
None of this is inherently “manly”. It’s just knowledge that is good to have for any person.
True! I guess by "manly" I mean in the sense of "person who can do stuff/person who can apply knowledge to a thing that may otherwise be outsourced to a product or service".
Conservatives have never really conserved anything. They've always been reactionaries.
I think a better question is; can we think of any one time when conservatives weren't on the wrong side of history? Particularly in every major major social movement from the upkeep of the monarchies, the emancipation of slavery, to granting freed slaves citizenship and suffrage rights, women's suffrage, women's labor rights, and civil rights?
I think a better question is; can we think of any one time when conservatives weren’t on the wrong side of history?
Oh for sure, those freaks are always wrong about pretty much everything that ever was to be wrong about! I agree with you 105%, no doubt. I guess I'm not phrasing thought properly. I wrote this on my much break, and I don't think I was able to get my thought out clearly. But yes, conservatives and most of all of their thoughts are trash.
That's why I wish we had more holidays in general. I also very much Halloween for similar reasons, as it creates an air of playfulness I think is desperately needed in adult life. I'm not a big thanksgiving guy, but I'm a big Christmas guy. I love the culture of kindness, joy, cheer, and giving that Christmas creates. It's even better when these feelings are genuine rather than culturally performative. I totally agree, the consumption and fetishism is dumb as hell. It's probably good that we all have a time when we all slow down and hangout with our friends and family (even make new friends and family) is cool and good.
under a sensible system we would not need specific dates set out by dead people for this kind of thing though
down with holidays
under a sensible system we would not need specific dates set out by dead people for this kind of thing
True! However, I would posit that communal festivities are probably good to have in that sensible system as well. I think communal festivities/holidays are probably good for building community. There are many genuine virtues and values which we uphold every day (both in the sensible system and in our current insensible system) but I think holidays are probably good to highlight those things. That's just IMHO.
after a revolution, the society that forms will enjoy a bit of protection by conservative elements because of their drive to protect the status quo, whatever it is -- this will work to our favor in protecting such a society from reactionaries. that is, if you divest conservative of its liberalism, its only function is to keep society from changing too much, which works as well to ward off a counterrevolution as it does to prevent a revolution today. so the goal of a revolutionary movement must be to install an engine of continued change such that class antagonisms are erased before any victories by counterrevolutionaries can start to roll them back -- this way, conservative elements quickly come to accept this new state of affairs as normal and work to defend it, rather than continuously fighting it. we've seen this work in the Soviet Union and other socialist states, though the constant pressure from external counterrevolutionary forces makes any final victory impossible until the revolution encompasses us all.
I'd separate that tendency from the reactionary urges to essentialize and fetishize people -- literally reducing entire categories of people into objects of either fear or desire. that just needs to be stamped out and it can't be tolerated on any front.
masculinity is not one of these. it's the essentialization of men into impossible ideals that creates the insecurities and subsequent fragility of self that makes recent articulations of it so reactionary. be a man. just look for a version of masculinity that recognizes shared, collective vulnerabilities as strengths, rather than weaknesses to be eliminated.
Not sure if this is what you were asking, but I think it's worth preserving indigenous cultures, especially with regards to stewardship of land, resources, and food
That's something I'm on board with for sure. I think "stewardship" is a great word for it too, as it implies your job is to foster the land, resources, and food not exploit them.
I was thinking about this before I went to bed, but in the Americas it seems like you're taught that the natives were complete savages....like they didn't know how to do anything.....but that doesn't seem to be entirely true. Sure they were less "developed" than the Europeans, but the Inca appear to have had brain surgeons, and the Spanish couldn't even touch the Aztecs in warfare despite having the blicky without having to grab all the other tribes to help fuck em up. Even the Spanish explorers who laid eyes on Tenochtitlan were like "dude what the fuck" because of how impressive it was. Imagine finding a civilization on par or close to the advancement of ancient Rome in what was bumfuck nowwhere at the time
It makes me sad wondering what kind of knowledge they had and all that has been lost after one of if not the biggest genocides in human history. They had been there fucking millenia, and IIRC they warned (and still warned) the settlers in North America to not do certain shit and they still deal with those problems today because they didn't lessen to the natives
American schools are an unchecked breeding ground for still rampant white supremacy. Shit-brained talking points from centuries ago are circulated from parent to child at home and then spread to other children at school. None of the kids know what it is they’re spreading but it still becomes wrapped up in how they think, often for the rest of their lives unless these views are constantly and ruthlessly examined and criticized.
Yeah I read 1491 a few years ago and it really surprised me how advanced some native cultures were and how massive the genocide was (and is).
they warned (and still warned) the settlers in North America to not do certain shit and they still deal with those problems today because they didn’t lessen to the natives
Reminds me of how certain native cultures used controlled burns to manage the prairies and forests before the wh*tes shut that down (with predictable results).
Prudence in political decision-making (as American Conservatives liked to imagine themselves) isn't necessary a bad thing, but at best we get suicidal orthodoxy from the Liberals and the Conservatives are a frothing death cult.
I don't understand so many people are saying no to this really. maybe it's the disconnect between traditional and conservative, but I think it's clear what you meant
just because awful people leverage these things for their awful ends didn't mean they are awful things
i think it's good to have ritual - private ritual is good but communal ritual would be better. it's good to eat together, at a really long table ideally. it's good to respect your elders in the truest sense
I think the idea that we have a duty to ourselves and to each other is really important
i think a drive for self improvement, to be as capable as possible in as many situations as possible, is a really worthwhile thing to instill in people
i think a drive for self improvement, to be as capable as possible in as many situations as possible, is a really worthwhile thing to instill in people
Me too, I don' t want to self-improve to be a better subject, more "hirable", or anything like that. I want to self-improve to be a better person, and in that betterment help others to do the same for whatever reasons they choose. I think self-improvement (in whichever way one defines it) is key to self-actualization so long as it doesn't come at the expense of others ability to do the same.
