- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse
- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse
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I haven't listened to this yet, but I heard people saying that in this episode they say that if the USSR hadn't exited it would mean it would be easier now to get people to be socialist, because the USSR was big and scary and now people are put off. Is that at all accurate? I don't want to listen to lib shit if it is, which is why i'm asking
Yes, they do say that, but their argument is much more nuanced than "the USSR was big and scary." They say a lot of things that are undeniably true, even if you disagree with their conclusions. I admire the accomplishments of the USSR as much as anyone here, but this episode gave me a lot to think about.
hmm, ok, that's good to hear. I enjoy hearing Matt's analysis of things, so I'll probably listen, even if I don't end up agreeing
No, it is Matt's usual take of the USSR. Basically, because of trying to do revolution in a still mostly feudal place, and that not being the spark that lit off revolution elsewhere with an industrialized economy(e.g. Germany), they had to more or less industrialize on their own. And this socialism in one (feudal) country required all the dirty work and violence inherent in industrialization and proletarianization were done under the banner of Communism rather than Capitalism. Both alienating people from the project of communism and providing easy propaganda for capitalists.
They explicitly state that they are looking at best possible alternate scenarios, so discounting we still get the Nazi and they rule Europe after WWII or the Russian right wing reaction forms some proto-fascism in ~1917. So best case is that the fact that there isn't a Moscow to point to in a Red Scare, leads the US to be less able to justify interventions abroad and crush left wing movements so totally, so we could get something else, somewhere else with some focus on American left wing movements since they are both Americans more knowledgeable about American culture and politics.
Matt has also pointed out before that no USSR means that WWII might have turned out...differently.
His take is basically "Lenin, was a brilliant guy but he didn't consider that Americans would be scared of savage foreigners representing communism". It's especially bad given how they've emphasized how the failure of the German Revolution was such a blow to the global movement. Moscow being the heart of global communism is unfathomably scary for Mayo Americans, but Germany, a country the US was literally at war with in 1918, which has significant industry that Capital would have tried to claw back, would have been less scary..... Also the idea that Americans are terrified of socialism from the "non West", but would have fought a continual war with southern Slaveholders to give black people rights in the south if only a more forceful President had replaced Lincoln.
This series has revealed that Matt is just a Blue MAGA Redditor at heart. Every episode concludes with the idea "wow, things would have been so much better if we just would have had more Progressive politicians elected". Wow, great stuff. Might be time for him to retire honestly.
lol Matt's takes on the USSR are a bit overstated, but "Blue MAGA Redditor" like come on
I've exaggerated a bit, but so far in the Hinge Point series he's put out 2 episodes talking about how actual revolutions were doomed to fail anyway and might have hurt, and 2 episodes about some b.s. palace intrigue around who was the Vice President of the USA and how it totally would have made the pieces line up or something.
I get his criticisms, but complaining about Russophobia hurting the global movement is asinine coming from a guy who thinks that replacing Johnson as Lincoln's VP would have radically changed everything. The America America America stuff is so lib.
It really feels like it's jut the same Chomsky stupidity. Like "oh no the bourgeoisie was able to paint communism as a foreign enemy and maybe that would be different without the USSR!" They literally turned Jews living in their own countries into scary foreign enemies too, it would be extremely easy to do that no matter what. You basically have to believe the "big foreign communist enemy" thing to think it actually meant anything. Everything is a foreign enemy to imperialists and capitalists! They would be able to find an equally effective way of demonizing communism without the USSR existing. Heck, they could literally just wait until any other country did the first communist revolution and use that instead! There's even a point Matt literally says "the creation of the Soviet Union splits the labor movement!" Like no it didn't. Capitalists split the labor movement by using the USSR as the bogeyman. Any sane person would have solidarity with the USSR. Anything else is just the "our noble knights vs their evil barbarians" meme.
It was entirely the failure of white :farquaad-point: people to do communism that made things end up the way they did. White people too comfy! Which they point out in the episode. A lot of the left-wing leaders were lame comfy people who didn't care enough.
And they say "people saw the USSR do stuff like the Moscow Trials and Molotov-Ribbentrop and lost interest in communism." But like, that was those people's faults. They thought they were going to take power and do a heckin' wholesome utopia communism instead of like, building an army, purging enemies, and having state power (which is stuff all the communist theorists sort of wrote about!). That's on those ignorant white Americans and Germans and whatever for not doing enough political education and stuff in terms of what to expect. Geopolitics is going to be a thing no matter what! Even heckin' wholesome Cuba (omg they met Obama!!!) and Vietnam (omg they met Obama!!!) and North Korea (omg he met with Trump!!!) do that stuff. And aren't they wrong about the "oh the international left lost solidarity" thing? Like, Hollywood people were still infatuated with the USSR into the 50s, and further on there were all sorts of movements in solidarity with the USSR later on, like the Black Panthers and Cuba, etc. And East Germany. The USSR just wasn't big enough on it's own.
And what has 30 years of the USSR not existing gotten us? Oh, nothing. How much progress has "trust us we aren't big evil gommulists like soviet union :powercry-2: " gotten anyone? Oh, none! All that does is mint more little social fascists who want healthcare for white people or Americans.
Imagine seeing Stalin as the figurehead of internationalism and anti-imperialism he actually was, and being like "no, that's too scary!" and thinking he needed to be replaced with some "soy" loser who would fellate white people. Two of the communist countries that still exist basically had leaders handpicked by Stalin's people (Ho Chi Minh (okay he wasn't hand-picked but you get it) and Kim Il-Sung). "Without the [USSR] there would be no new [communist movement]"
Okay, I'm done :gaddafi-happy: :dancing-roach:
I've only made it halfway though because the "AES is good , BUT" statements are so thick. It's not really disappointing though because it's not surprising. Thanks for the effort comment!
Saying that the creation of the USSR split labor also seems anachronistic to me. A lot of labor movements were already split by 1917 because there was lots of in fighting over to what degree WW1 should be either supported or opposed. The Australian Labor Party split in 1916, for example.
Here in the USA the comintern played a constructive role by requiring the consolidation of the CLPA and the CPA in the early 20s. The resulting organization, the now-liberalized CPUSA, had an enormously positive role in the labor struggles of the following decades through its CIO and ILD mass organizations, among others.
I don't agree with their conclusion, but the responses to this episode are in such bad faith. So many modern "Marxists" are incapable of engaging in conversation let alone debate. They just screech "LIBERAL! ANTI-COMMUNIST!" in paranoia. And ironically these same people often will think they're in the tradition of a brilliant thinker like Lenin.
