While many laypeople believe these gold tablets to be forgeries created by the church, this simply isn't the case. The truth is far worse. The gold tablets are from an indigenous kingdom that had long since disappeared
The way I always heard it is that the plates never existed, not that they were taken from an indigenous kingdom. In fact, it's the Mormons themselves who insist that the plates were created by an man from an indigenous American tribe called the Nephites who were originally from Israel. The full title of the book of Mormon is "The Book of Mormon: An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi," Mormon being the name of the indigenous man who supposedly created the plates.
Smith said that he found the plates on September 22, 1823, on a hill near his home in Manchester, New York, after the angel Moroni directed him to a buried stone box. He said that the angel prevented him from taking the plates but instructed him to return to the same location in a year. He returned to that site every year, but it was not until September 1827 that he recovered the plates on his fourth annual attempt to retrieve them. He returned home with a heavy object wrapped in a frock, which he then put in a box. He allowed others to heft the box but said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "reformed Egyptian" language.
Smith dictated the text of the plates while a scribe wrote down the words which would later become the Book of Mormon. Eyewitnesses to the process said Smith translated the plates, not by looking directly at them, but by looking through a transparent seer stone in the bottom of his hat.
Smith eventually obtained testimonies from 11 men who said that they had seen the plates, known as the Book of Mormon witnesses. After the translation was complete, Smith said that he returned the plates to the angel Moroni; thus, they could never be examined.
It seems to me that he simply filled a random box with heavy objects, wouldn't let anyone look at what was inside, "translated" the plates by looking at a "seer stone" in his hat, and then "gave the plates (which probably never existed) back to the angel Moroni." He curated "witnesses" (loyal Mormons) who would vouch for him.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Smith actually found any kind of indigenous artifacts. The evidence points towards him simply insisting that he got plates from an "angel" and then "gave them back" when he was done "translating" them, i.e., dictating his ideas to a loyal fellow Mormon.
I'm not saying that it's impossible that indigenous North Americans could have possibly produced such an object, however:
To date "no one has found evidence that points to the use of melting, smelting and casting in prehistoric eastern North America."
and
Archaeological evidence has not revealed metal smelting or alloying of metals by pre-Columbian native peoples north of the Rio Grande; however, they did use native copper extensively.
Most artifacts of gold come from Central/South America. Could you provide a source for your claims that the tablets were real in the first place? If anything, the Mormon telling of the story doesn't really conflict with your idea anyway, since the Mormon interpretation is that indigenous Americans are a lost tribe Israelites. Joseph Smith never argued that the plates were made by non-indigenous people, but rather that indigenous people are Israelites. That of course comes with its own separate baggage, but he never claimed that his (likely non existent) golden plates were non-indigenous in origin. The book of Mormon claims that the tablets were created by an indigenous American man named Mormon who was a member of a tribe called the Nephites. Joseph Smith of course made all that shit up.
The point I'm trying to make is that even if everything the church says is true, Smith's reported translation techniques are absolutely fucking ridiculous and invalidates anything he wrote. I can't say where I live, but you seem to know about mormonism so I'm just gonna mention that god damn tree and hope you know where I'm talking about. They show tablets up here, I saw them in the museum as a kid. RLDS and COC are huge up here, so Mormons have to come up with something to make themselves not look stupid. Whether or not JS actually used them is questionable, but the modern church definitely has tablets in a museum that I've seen indigenous people claim as their people's tablets. My writing mostly does agree with church history, because I think JS is one of the funniest grifters to ever grift because of how blatantly ridiculous the grift is.
The truth of the Mormon church barely even matters because their lies are just so blatantly stupid. However, I'd say that even if this is just a local myth because of where I live. Their accounts of the situations don't make them look good. It's like the church actually showing the "seers stone"? Their own account of history makes them look like massive idiots.
Smith's reported translation techniques are absolutely fucking ridiculous and invalidates anything he wrote
Right. I brought up that he looked into his hat. He didn't have tablets to translate in the first place. He claims an angel led him to them, and that he gave them back to the angel when he was done with them. There were no techniques of translation. Joseph Smith was illiterate. He claimed to translate the tablets using divination, and he had a loyal church Mormon write down what he dictated while looking into his hat. So not only did Smith not read anything, he didn't write anything either. The Mormon tradition started with the oration of Joseph Smith, which he claimed to be translating tablets that he was led to by an angel by using divine powers. But he never showed anyone the actual tablets. Perhaps he was planning on having some tablets forged eventually but never got around to it and finally gave up and said that he gave them back to the angel. In the 1840s there were some attempts by people to fake Smith's tablets by putting Egyptian hieroglyphs on brass plates, but these were fairly quickly proven to be forged.
They show tablets up here, I saw them in the museum as a kid.
Right, those are artistic reproductions by the church.
Not even the church claims that the tablets they have in the museum are the originals. Because there are no originals. Joseph Smith claimed an angel led him to the tablets, and that he eventually gave the tablets back to the angel, and that nobody else was allowed to see them. I'm sure he would have been shameless enough to steal an indigenous artifact if he had actually found one, but it seems that he didn't actually have any tablets. And the archeological record seems to indicate that most pre-columbian gold metallurgy was done in Central/South America, not in New York where Smith found the tablets. The Nephite tribe that Smith claimed the tablets were from isn't even a real indigenous people group. It's a fictional group of Israelites that he claims fled to the United States in ancient times.
but the modern church definitely has tablets in a museum that I've seen indigenous people claim as their people's tablets.
I'm trying to look into this and I'm finding a lot of controversies between the Mormon church and indigenous peoples, but none of them have to do with the golden plates. Most of them have to do with the church physically and sexually abusing indigenous members. I'm not finding any controversies about the Mormon church stealing an artifact from a tribe. Because there was no artifact to steal in the first place.
I think JS is one of the funniest grifters to ever grift because of how blatantly ridiculous the grift is. The truth of the Mormon church barely even matters because their lies are just so blatantly stupid.
I do think there's an important distinction between him actually stealing an indigenous artifact and no such artifact existing in the first place, but yes, he was a grifter.
Yeah, agree that nephites are bullshit. Nothing Smith says should be taken seriously. Just wanna make it very clear that I'm not trying to defend the truth of Mormon historical accounts because they're clearly bullshit. But mormons over here do claim they found the plates. Remember, I don't live in Utah, I live by THAT tree. I hope you know what I'm talking about when I say that. I can PM you the place, but I can firmly say that I live in a place that facilitates a more disingenuous Mormon. This is a really hard thing to research into because I think I may be talking about things that I heard through word of mouth over the years and a couple articles I remember. I wouldn't be surprised if the church has just done a particularly good job of making people over here ignore the plates. Like I said, regardless of what is true, the plates they show are for people already in the church, not outsiders. They show them so that people get more wrapped up in it. But like I said, nothing has hieroglyphics on it.
I'd be more concerned about keeping things fully accurate, but we're talking about religion where what people believe is literally the whole thing. Joseph Smith loved archaeological finds, if the plates don't exist, he's still a grave digger who stole artifacts from other civilizations. With his history, I find distinctions on him to be unimportant
The way I always heard it is that the plates never existed, not that they were taken from an indigenous kingdom. In fact, it's the Mormons themselves who insist that the plates were created by an man from an indigenous American tribe called the Nephites who were originally from Israel. The full title of the book of Mormon is "The Book of Mormon: An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi," Mormon being the name of the indigenous man who supposedly created the plates.
It seems to me that he simply filled a random box with heavy objects, wouldn't let anyone look at what was inside, "translated" the plates by looking at a "seer stone" in his hat, and then "gave the plates (which probably never existed) back to the angel Moroni." He curated "witnesses" (loyal Mormons) who would vouch for him.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Smith actually found any kind of indigenous artifacts. The evidence points towards him simply insisting that he got plates from an "angel" and then "gave them back" when he was done "translating" them, i.e., dictating his ideas to a loyal fellow Mormon.
I'm not saying that it's impossible that indigenous North Americans could have possibly produced such an object, however:
and
Most artifacts of gold come from Central/South America. Could you provide a source for your claims that the tablets were real in the first place? If anything, the Mormon telling of the story doesn't really conflict with your idea anyway, since the Mormon interpretation is that indigenous Americans are a lost tribe Israelites. Joseph Smith never argued that the plates were made by non-indigenous people, but rather that indigenous people are Israelites. That of course comes with its own separate baggage, but he never claimed that his (likely non existent) golden plates were non-indigenous in origin. The book of Mormon claims that the tablets were created by an indigenous American man named Mormon who was a member of a tribe called the Nephites. Joseph Smith of course made all that shit up.
The point I'm trying to make is that even if everything the church says is true, Smith's reported translation techniques are absolutely fucking ridiculous and invalidates anything he wrote. I can't say where I live, but you seem to know about mormonism so I'm just gonna mention that god damn tree and hope you know where I'm talking about. They show tablets up here, I saw them in the museum as a kid. RLDS and COC are huge up here, so Mormons have to come up with something to make themselves not look stupid. Whether or not JS actually used them is questionable, but the modern church definitely has tablets in a museum that I've seen indigenous people claim as their people's tablets. My writing mostly does agree with church history, because I think JS is one of the funniest grifters to ever grift because of how blatantly ridiculous the grift is.
The truth of the Mormon church barely even matters because their lies are just so blatantly stupid. However, I'd say that even if this is just a local myth because of where I live. Their accounts of the situations don't make them look good. It's like the church actually showing the "seers stone"? Their own account of history makes them look like massive idiots.
Right. I brought up that he looked into his hat. He didn't have tablets to translate in the first place. He claims an angel led him to them, and that he gave them back to the angel when he was done with them. There were no techniques of translation. Joseph Smith was illiterate. He claimed to translate the tablets using divination, and he had a loyal church Mormon write down what he dictated while looking into his hat. So not only did Smith not read anything, he didn't write anything either. The Mormon tradition started with the oration of Joseph Smith, which he claimed to be translating tablets that he was led to by an angel by using divine powers. But he never showed anyone the actual tablets. Perhaps he was planning on having some tablets forged eventually but never got around to it and finally gave up and said that he gave them back to the angel. In the 1840s there were some attempts by people to fake Smith's tablets by putting Egyptian hieroglyphs on brass plates, but these were fairly quickly proven to be forged.
Right, those are artistic reproductions by the church.
Not even the church claims that the tablets they have in the museum are the originals. Because there are no originals. Joseph Smith claimed an angel led him to the tablets, and that he eventually gave the tablets back to the angel, and that nobody else was allowed to see them. I'm sure he would have been shameless enough to steal an indigenous artifact if he had actually found one, but it seems that he didn't actually have any tablets. And the archeological record seems to indicate that most pre-columbian gold metallurgy was done in Central/South America, not in New York where Smith found the tablets. The Nephite tribe that Smith claimed the tablets were from isn't even a real indigenous people group. It's a fictional group of Israelites that he claims fled to the United States in ancient times.
I'm trying to look into this and I'm finding a lot of controversies between the Mormon church and indigenous peoples, but none of them have to do with the golden plates. Most of them have to do with the church physically and sexually abusing indigenous members. I'm not finding any controversies about the Mormon church stealing an artifact from a tribe. Because there was no artifact to steal in the first place.
I do think there's an important distinction between him actually stealing an indigenous artifact and no such artifact existing in the first place, but yes, he was a grifter.
Yeah, agree that nephites are bullshit. Nothing Smith says should be taken seriously. Just wanna make it very clear that I'm not trying to defend the truth of Mormon historical accounts because they're clearly bullshit. But mormons over here do claim they found the plates. Remember, I don't live in Utah, I live by THAT tree. I hope you know what I'm talking about when I say that. I can PM you the place, but I can firmly say that I live in a place that facilitates a more disingenuous Mormon. This is a really hard thing to research into because I think I may be talking about things that I heard through word of mouth over the years and a couple articles I remember. I wouldn't be surprised if the church has just done a particularly good job of making people over here ignore the plates. Like I said, regardless of what is true, the plates they show are for people already in the church, not outsiders. They show them so that people get more wrapped up in it. But like I said, nothing has hieroglyphics on it.
I'd be more concerned about keeping things fully accurate, but we're talking about religion where what people believe is literally the whole thing. Joseph Smith loved archaeological finds, if the plates don't exist, he's still a grave digger who stole artifacts from other civilizations. With his history, I find distinctions on him to be unimportant