Seeing this post reminded me that I used to devoutly follow GoT/asoiaf until the show ended and...yeah it's crazy how that finale took me from consuming fan theory threads on a daily basis to basically not thinking about the series for years at a time
I emerge from my lurking, adamant that the two problems with the Last Jedi was that it wasn't episode 7 and it was too much of a you know what to actually act on its thesis by taking advantage of Carrie Fischer's death to give her a traumatic death.
See that's the thing: it's like they chickened out of a obvious solution to the actor's death. She should have stayed blasted off into space, it would have given Kylo a valid reason to turn on his master after hesitating.
Maybe Disney forced him to do it, maybe he was deadset on the Holdo struggle/deconstruction of what made Poe and fighter pilots cool. (idk, the Rose thing about protecting what you love versus destroying what you hate was pretty lib) I'm convinced that the writers are simply not allowed to do based things like having sand people invade urban centers (cough Algeria/Iraq, Afghanistan) or have Admiral Ackbar (allahu) suicide bomb the british sounding people.
How is Rose's line lib? Its the same sentiment as Che had.
“At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.”
He also was fine with destroying the old regime and would have gladly rammed his ship into the enemy if it meant saving his comrades. Seriously think about it: if two space wizards didn't show up, then at best they would have ended up in a labor/concentration camp.
Yeah but ramming your ship into an enemy when it will do nothing at all is not defiance in that situation, it is indulgence. Those two space wizards showing up was what they hoped for, they had to buy time for someone to answer their call and they did. Finn was not saving his comrades by dying needlessly. And oh look that whole protecting what you love thing resulted in said space wizards coming to save them. It was not some ancillary event, it literally had to do with them protecting what they love. Rey trying to find Finn and co is the only reason the space wizards manage to save them, cause she follows the beacon.
Plus in what way is Rose's line advocating for protecting the old regime? I dislike how lib the resistance is, but there is nothing lib about the sentiment there. Again its the same as what Che said. Simplistically referencing things that happen or could have happened in universe, has no bearing on if the line is liberal or not. Imagining Che in star wars is not what determines the value of the line
edit: Oh and to that end, here is Che from his work "Guerrilla Warfare"
This is the guerrilla's heroism. For this it is said that walking is a form of fighting and that avoiding combat at a given moment is another. Facing the general superiority of the enemy at a given place, one must find the tactics with which to gain relative superiority at that moment, either by being capable of concentrating more troops than the enemy or by using the terrain fully and well in order to secure advantages that unbalance the correlation of forces. In these conditions tactical victory is assured; if relative superiority is not clear, it is better not to act. As long as the guerrilla army is in the position of deciding the “how” and the “when,” no combat should be fought that will not end in victory.
So I would assume he would follow his advice or intend for others to do so if regrouping and fighting on is possible. Allende said something similar. But regardless this has nothing to do with whether love is a liberal concept or not
The Last Jedi is uniquely bad because it tries and fails to rebel against the two movies it is sandwiched between. (that and they could have cut out casino planet, talking about war profiteering was ideologically beneficial but essentially pointless given that they ended up still losing the codes to a character who never showed up again) Look up Disney's Anti-trilogy, it basically explains most of the issues with the sequels. (one thing i should add is Disney's bizarre decision to ignore some of the terciary ip it just bought which led to needless rebranding of what was in retrospect just a poor adaption of Dark Empire, which itself was one of the worst parts of the EU. Don't mind me, I'm still mad that Naboo wasn't the gungan word for Alderaan)
Motherfucker it's a space opera based on magic and trusting the goodness of the universe, rejecting the force is literally rejecting the trench run lol. If anything the constant training and turning into wizard jannissary corps is what fucked the Jedi, it's pretty obvious that everyone is in touch with the force and ignoring the masses because you think they have a low power level was a terrible prequels idea. (you could rationalize the stuff about Luke being too old by just saying he was set in his ways like his uncle and too much of podunk town dick with wander lust to really be ready to sacrifice for a cause)
Last Jedi had Finn and Poe decide to be aware of the space opera and get others killed.
Like if you run around going “magical thinking will save me” you will lose.
The Jedi’s problem wasn’t the training or being detached, it was being formally part of the system.
The Jedi should be roaming the universe as heroic agents of intuition. But becoming a branch of the government, and then becoming an actual army. The Jedi should not have been an army against separatist ideology as they should have been seeking out the injustice at the heart of the problem.
Last Jedi is the only good Star Wars movie since 1983.
It’s the only movie that really considers maybe the heroes are fucked by apathy and allowing the first order to Happen in the first place.
Miracle moments happen for both sides, and Star Wars logic is also defied.
It’s very much about asking God to let you win the lottery requires you to at least buy a ticket.
Oh my God that's alot of text. With that said, wasn't the resistance literally a group that only survived the death of the new republic because they weren't complacent and decided to keep fighting even after the lib mon mothma decided the struggle was over and she could settle into her roles as a former politician in space california? The Last Jedi punishes their guerrilla moxy by annihilating them by the end of the movie. (no, this wasn't metacommentary comparing the rebels to Mao or the 26th of July movement) Granted TROS ruins this by having Lando pull an armada out of his ass but still. I don't necessarily disagree about the jedi being a part of the system, i just think that the Sith maneuvered them into relying on it and exploiting how they had been the ones secretly letting it go on for so long. I'm pretty sure the Sith kept the republic on life support just long enough to have the Jedi be hopelessly bound up in it. Leia also kind of punished Poe for no reason, that fleet was fucked anyway. (granted she had no way to know that they were going to be tracked, it's just that tlj kept making valid points then immediately undermining them for no reason, which made the thing they were criticizing right in retrospect. If you have slow ass bombers, you need to use that shit before it gets wiped out, even if the crew dies
Leia reprimanding Poe was not because he got the bomber crews killed, it was because he violated a direct order. They are a military, and that guerrilla moxy cannot win a war on its own. If everyone tries their own sacrifices and is predisposed to break ranks whenever they feel like it, they will fail. That's the whole point, it was the point with Poe, it was the point with Finn's "sacrifice" which would not have actually worked but was just self-indulgent. Poe prevented them from leaving sooner just to take down a vessel which the FO could very well replace more easily than the Resistance can any of its equipment.
I also wouldn't say TLJ eliminates them because their moxy or whatever, they do survive, like Luke said "The rebellion is reborn". But yeah the fucking armada out of nowhere pisses me off so much. Its like all the loss or set up for a weakened Resistance is thrown aside. The idea is not bad, but it feels utterly hollow
I do fully agree with you about the jedi and the system. The Jedi should be involved, they should have a will to the presence in the galaxy. Honestly that was the truth to Dooku's dissent within the order, he felt that if Jedi where to die on the Republic's orders, they should have a voice in the senate at the very least. The Jedi should be involved in galactic affairs, and if the Republic is the main body in the galaxy then they should be involved with it. But either fully integrated as a branch of it, or have a very explicit stance and role in it all. The waffling was the biggest problem IMO.
Is it weird that in the theater I instantly knew how they worked and was like "oh cool they have gravity in the vessel and once partway there they magnetize or something"? Like I spend too much time justifying and thinking about the logistics of star wars warfare, but I felt it was fine. Not like we dont see TIE Bombers drop bombs in ESB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGlo_TNDp0
No they were fast 1950s bombers. The starfortresses are based on flying fortresses, TIE-bombers are Douglas Devastators or the like. Not like TIE's weren't literally made from scrapped Stukas for the original trilogy.
Yeah cause they are meant to carpet bomb. That was why they worked for me, that and I liked the design. You have the Resistance's only bombers as old old surplus from the end of the civil war, meant for planetary bombings mostly, and largely converted to mining vessels (which in lore is actually how the Tico sisters learned to fly them), clearly not in good shape and even moreso nothing akin to Y-wings which can maneuver. I loved it, the point was that this is what the Resistance is relying on, they cannot even afford to spare these hunks of junk as they are their only bombers. Yeah they are shit for the job, but they are all they have on them.
It's one of those lines between a stupid idea on a story level, and a stupid thing that on a story level tells us something fundamental. I view it like complaining that the speeders at the end are dumb cause they literally break from Poe's foot pushing down. It is there to show the desperation of the situation.
I adore TLJ, but TROS did that for me. I feel bad for my friends I made through star wars, like I just cant motivate myself to talk excitedly with them about this stuff anymore.
it was episode 7 that did it for me. I quite literally read every star wars book from the Timothy Zahn one up through like the 10th Yuzhan Vong book. I was obsessed. And the canon reset + the shittiest of The Force Awakens + franchise fatigue from Disney churning stuff out means I literally haven't even bothered to see Solo or episode 9 or the bad batch or the mandalorian or the Boba Fett show or whatever the fuck else they've made in the past 7 minutes.
See, I had that experience with Star Wars: The Clone Wars (the animated movie released as a pilot to the first 3D cartoon). Went into that theater reading every novel and comic that came out, left it barely ever thinking about the franchise at all.
Seeing this post reminded me that I used to devoutly follow GoT/asoiaf until the show ended and...yeah it's crazy how that finale took me from consuming fan theory threads on a daily basis to basically not thinking about the series for years at a time
Lol thats what 'The Last Jedi' did for me. Left the theater never having to give a fuck about Star Wars again
Be careful saying that round these parts
I emerge from my lurking, adamant that the two problems with the Last Jedi was that it wasn't episode 7 and it was too much of a you know what to actually act on its thesis by taking advantage of Carrie Fischer's death to give her a traumatic death.
Also that scene where Carrie Fischer turns into Mary poppins was something else
See that's the thing: it's like they chickened out of a obvious solution to the actor's death. She should have stayed blasted off into space, it would have given Kylo a valid reason to turn on his master after hesitating.
Yeah that was really weird. Seemed like the perfect opportunity to kill her off and then she opens her eyes and floats away lolol
Maybe Disney forced him to do it, maybe he was deadset on the Holdo struggle/deconstruction of what made Poe and fighter pilots cool. (idk, the Rose thing about protecting what you love versus destroying what you hate was pretty lib) I'm convinced that the writers are simply not allowed to do based things like having sand people invade urban centers (cough Algeria/Iraq, Afghanistan) or have Admiral Ackbar (allahu) suicide bomb the british sounding people.
How is Rose's line lib? Its the same sentiment as Che had.
He also was fine with destroying the old regime and would have gladly rammed his ship into the enemy if it meant saving his comrades. Seriously think about it: if two space wizards didn't show up, then at best they would have ended up in a labor/concentration camp.
Yeah but ramming your ship into an enemy when it will do nothing at all is not defiance in that situation, it is indulgence. Those two space wizards showing up was what they hoped for, they had to buy time for someone to answer their call and they did. Finn was not saving his comrades by dying needlessly. And oh look that whole protecting what you love thing resulted in said space wizards coming to save them. It was not some ancillary event, it literally had to do with them protecting what they love. Rey trying to find Finn and co is the only reason the space wizards manage to save them, cause she follows the beacon.
Plus in what way is Rose's line advocating for protecting the old regime? I dislike how lib the resistance is, but there is nothing lib about the sentiment there. Again its the same as what Che said. Simplistically referencing things that happen or could have happened in universe, has no bearing on if the line is liberal or not. Imagining Che in star wars is not what determines the value of the line
edit: Oh and to that end, here is Che from his work "Guerrilla Warfare"
So I would assume he would follow his advice or intend for others to do so if regrouping and fighting on is possible. Allende said something similar. But regardless this has nothing to do with whether love is a liberal concept or not
They were cornered and you are the one complaining about miracles.
There is a difference between fighting hoping that someone will save you, and dying needlessly.
Now that would’ve been cool. Return Star Wars to its anti-imperialist roots! The good things never happen
Well, she hadn't died by then
That's fucking worse God was trying to save the franchise and they said no
The franchise died in 1982
We stan the Bacta War in this household
I have no idea what that is and don't care to know
Stackpole is our god and you WILL respect him
Absolutely, return of Jedi was when it started to decline.
Idk I used to think last Jedi was uniquely bad but now that I am no longer under the spell, I realize it’s all shit and Last Jedi is not unique
The Last Jedi is uniquely bad because it tries and fails to rebel against the two movies it is sandwiched between. (that and they could have cut out casino planet, talking about war profiteering was ideologically beneficial but essentially pointless given that they ended up still losing the codes to a character who never showed up again) Look up Disney's Anti-trilogy, it basically explains most of the issues with the sequels. (one thing i should add is Disney's bizarre decision to ignore some of the terciary ip it just bought which led to needless rebranding of what was in retrospect just a poor adaption of Dark Empire, which itself was one of the worst parts of the EU. Don't mind me, I'm still mad that Naboo wasn't the gungan word for Alderaan)
This is wrong. The casino planet is there to show that relying on magical thinking and just trusting the force is dumb shit.
The Jedi trusted in the force but also trained constantly to be ready.
Last Jedi is the best Star Wars branded movie of the last 30 years.
Motherfucker it's a space opera based on magic and trusting the goodness of the universe, rejecting the force is literally rejecting the trench run lol. If anything the constant training and turning into wizard jannissary corps is what fucked the Jedi, it's pretty obvious that everyone is in touch with the force and ignoring the masses because you think they have a low power level was a terrible prequels idea. (you could rationalize the stuff about Luke being too old by just saying he was set in his ways like his uncle and too much of podunk town dick with wander lust to really be ready to sacrifice for a cause)
Last Jedi had Finn and Poe decide to be aware of the space opera and get others killed.
Like if you run around going “magical thinking will save me” you will lose.
The Jedi’s problem wasn’t the training or being detached, it was being formally part of the system.
The Jedi should be roaming the universe as heroic agents of intuition. But becoming a branch of the government, and then becoming an actual army. The Jedi should not have been an army against separatist ideology as they should have been seeking out the injustice at the heart of the problem.
Last Jedi is the only good Star Wars movie since 1983.
It’s the only movie that really considers maybe the heroes are fucked by apathy and allowing the first order to Happen in the first place.
Miracle moments happen for both sides, and Star Wars logic is also defied.
It’s very much about asking God to let you win the lottery requires you to at least buy a ticket.
Oh my God that's alot of text. With that said, wasn't the resistance literally a group that only survived the death of the new republic because they weren't complacent and decided to keep fighting even after the lib mon mothma decided the struggle was over and she could settle into her roles as a former politician in space california? The Last Jedi punishes their guerrilla moxy by annihilating them by the end of the movie. (no, this wasn't metacommentary comparing the rebels to Mao or the 26th of July movement) Granted TROS ruins this by having Lando pull an armada out of his ass but still. I don't necessarily disagree about the jedi being a part of the system, i just think that the Sith maneuvered them into relying on it and exploiting how they had been the ones secretly letting it go on for so long. I'm pretty sure the Sith kept the republic on life support just long enough to have the Jedi be hopelessly bound up in it. Leia also kind of punished Poe for no reason, that fleet was fucked anyway. (granted she had no way to know that they were going to be tracked, it's just that tlj kept making valid points then immediately undermining them for no reason, which made the thing they were criticizing right in retrospect. If you have slow ass bombers, you need to use that shit before it gets wiped out, even if the crew dies
Leia reprimanding Poe was not because he got the bomber crews killed, it was because he violated a direct order. They are a military, and that guerrilla moxy cannot win a war on its own. If everyone tries their own sacrifices and is predisposed to break ranks whenever they feel like it, they will fail. That's the whole point, it was the point with Poe, it was the point with Finn's "sacrifice" which would not have actually worked but was just self-indulgent. Poe prevented them from leaving sooner just to take down a vessel which the FO could very well replace more easily than the Resistance can any of its equipment.
I also wouldn't say TLJ eliminates them because their moxy or whatever, they do survive, like Luke said "The rebellion is reborn". But yeah the fucking armada out of nowhere pisses me off so much. Its like all the loss or set up for a weakened Resistance is thrown aside. The idea is not bad, but it feels utterly hollow
I do fully agree with you about the jedi and the system. The Jedi should be involved, they should have a will to the presence in the galaxy. Honestly that was the truth to Dooku's dissent within the order, he felt that if Jedi where to die on the Republic's orders, they should have a voice in the senate at the very least. The Jedi should be involved in galactic affairs, and if the Republic is the main body in the galaxy then they should be involved with it. But either fully integrated as a branch of it, or have a very explicit stance and role in it all. The waffling was the biggest problem IMO.
Dear god i forgot bombers in space!! Holy shit!!
Is it weird that in the theater I instantly knew how they worked and was like "oh cool they have gravity in the vessel and once partway there they magnetize or something"? Like I spend too much time justifying and thinking about the logistics of star wars warfare, but I felt it was fine. Not like we dont see TIE Bombers drop bombs in ESB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGlo_TNDp0
Tie bombers werent slow 1950s bombers.
No they were fast 1950s bombers. The starfortresses are based on flying fortresses, TIE-bombers are Douglas Devastators or the like. Not like TIE's weren't literally made from scrapped Stukas for the original trilogy.
In that scene they were slow as fuck. Tie bombers were cruising and dropping bombs. But i believe your confidence.
Yeah cause they are meant to carpet bomb. That was why they worked for me, that and I liked the design. You have the Resistance's only bombers as old old surplus from the end of the civil war, meant for planetary bombings mostly, and largely converted to mining vessels (which in lore is actually how the Tico sisters learned to fly them), clearly not in good shape and even moreso nothing akin to Y-wings which can maneuver. I loved it, the point was that this is what the Resistance is relying on, they cannot even afford to spare these hunks of junk as they are their only bombers. Yeah they are shit for the job, but they are all they have on them.
It's one of those lines between a stupid idea on a story level, and a stupid thing that on a story level tells us something fundamental. I view it like complaining that the speeders at the end are dumb cause they literally break from Poe's foot pushing down. It is there to show the desperation of the situation.
Not complaining. You're awesome!
:deng-smile:
Same. I hated it for not being gay enough. Poe and Finn were supposed to be a thing, dammit.
This is why the only media I consume is different adaptations of mo dao zu shi
I adore TLJ, but TROS did that for me. I feel bad for my friends I made through star wars, like I just cant motivate myself to talk excitedly with them about this stuff anymore.
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Literally had Palps return in fortnite, absolute disney hellworld
When I told my friend about that hit I was legit worried he would have a heart attack. It was his joker moment really
it was episode 7 that did it for me. I quite literally read every star wars book from the Timothy Zahn one up through like the 10th Yuzhan Vong book. I was obsessed. And the canon reset + the shittiest of The Force Awakens + franchise fatigue from Disney churning stuff out means I literally haven't even bothered to see Solo or episode 9 or the bad batch or the mandalorian or the Boba Fett show or whatever the fuck else they've made in the past 7 minutes.
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Why would the best star wars movie do that
I just knew i had been to the mountain top.
See, I had that experience with Star Wars: The Clone Wars (the animated movie released as a pilot to the first 3D cartoon). Went into that theater reading every novel and comic that came out, left it barely ever thinking about the franchise at all.
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