There is a minimum baseline I think, not just of material needs , but of positive & trusting human interpersonal connection, that has to be met before anybody can actually "just chill", in the kind of way that you're describing. I think that this is a thing that many people seek to deny, because under present conditions there is no real way to actually provide those things to people who don't have them that doesn't require direct imposition on others. It doesn't make it not true though, is the problem.
At first I was a bit skeptical of the "men should find a healthy community in other men before dating" but I think hexbear is starting to demo that it might actually be possible to form healthy masc friendgroups in the future. The more guys we get out there who think about capitalist alienation rationally, the more cool dudes we'll have irl who can help deprogram their friends from the incel path. I think these sorts of socialized friendgroups is what we're going to need as that "minimum baseline" as traditional structures fail.
At first I was a bit skeptical of the “men should find a healthy community in other men before dating” but I think hexbear is starting to demo that it might actually be possible to form healthy masc friendgroups in the future. The more guys we get out there who think about capitalist alienation rationally, the more cool dudes we’ll have irl who can help deprogram their friends from the incel path.
I don't necessarily disagree, tbh. I just think, and this is part of why I linked the Unlearning Economics video beforehand , that people can get materially locked out of even that, tbh. I for one am kind of exactly an example of that; I'm 30, I grew up in a trailer, I got autism, I live with my ma cause I can't keep a job for more than 6 months (usually I have to leave cause I get injured somehow, like right now my knee is broke), I never been to college, and so on. Point is, I got no real chance to make longstanding IRL friendships with most people, even other guys, cause they talk to me for like 5 minutes & there like "Oh this guy's removed".
And so some may grant me the courtesy of their momentary attention, but this is not a relationship of peers, if you understand me.
And that's something that inevitably gets amplified by both the economic angle, but also the gender inequality angle.
I think this is the first time I’ve seen you articulate all of this and just wanted to say I appreciate you telling us about it. Not to say you haven’t before, but I’ve seen you around for a while and just never gotten this context
Oh, last time you said you were old I thought you were in your 60s or something. I'm pretty sure there are other millenials around here who can relate to some degree.
The discrimination sucks, though. I'm sorry. I've seen that kind of thing firsthand, and have even heard about nonprofits taking advantage of people. We really need to work on being better to differently abled people as a society. And it's stupid when you're a minority and the only place to find any solidarity is on the internet. This sort of thing used to be true for queer people too. It's like you gotta be really deep inside your own head to not see the effect it has on how we organize all of society.
While a friend of mine who had during uni a spare room that is nearly as large as my whole flat in which she would regularly host parties, get togethers, etc. while my non flatshare apt. was large enough for 2-3 people max. That lead to a significant comparable reduction in social interaction. Which changed once I got a larger flat to host meetings, too.
So while my experience is different than yours I can anecdotally confirm your point.
Is there however some social, common or communal space that you can more or less easily reach to be involved in routine social interaction? In my experience radio amateurs, hacker spaces, workshops like with tools, and neurodiverse meetups were groups in which autistic people were not uncommon and not seldomly had organizational roles. Oh also my food not bombs has a core team which deliver really good work.
I do feel your want for long lasting connection and friendship though. Most places I experienced that were common shared projects, but not all commonly shared projects lead to that.
Is there however some social, common or communal space that you can more or less easily reach to be involved in routine social interaction?
I live in the rural midwest, so for me the answer is that there is church; and nothing else unless I want to drive for more than an hour out of town, which I can't do on my leg right now, really. And I do not like to go there, because they do not respect me, or share my values.
That def. sounds understandable. It is a hard situation. When I lived in a slightly more rural region than now we had some associations and groups which would drive around to bring events to small (read 1000-2000 pop) places and to fetch people who were not able to commute themselves for other events. However it is was from perfect.
A big part of it is that a healthy masculine relationship needs to include things which are typically gatekept by patriarchal men to only occur in romantic relationships with women. Men in platonic relationships ought to be able meet needs for physical touch, emotional intimacy, etc. It’s easier said than done sometimes, but anti-patriarchal men’s groups have the potential to genuinely subversive to capital for the alienation reasons you stated
There is a minimum baseline I think, not just of material needs , but of positive & trusting human interpersonal connection, that has to be met before anybody can actually "just chill", in the kind of way that you're describing. I think that this is a thing that many people seek to deny, because under present conditions there is no real way to actually provide those things to people who don't have them that doesn't require direct imposition on others. It doesn't make it not true though, is the problem.
At first I was a bit skeptical of the "men should find a healthy community in other men before dating" but I think hexbear is starting to demo that it might actually be possible to form healthy masc friendgroups in the future. The more guys we get out there who think about capitalist alienation rationally, the more cool dudes we'll have irl who can help deprogram their friends from the incel path. I think these sorts of socialized friendgroups is what we're going to need as that "minimum baseline" as traditional structures fail.
I don't necessarily disagree, tbh. I just think, and this is part of why I linked the Unlearning Economics video beforehand , that people can get materially locked out of even that, tbh. I for one am kind of exactly an example of that; I'm 30, I grew up in a trailer, I got autism, I live with my ma cause I can't keep a job for more than 6 months (usually I have to leave cause I get injured somehow, like right now my knee is broke), I never been to college, and so on. Point is, I got no real chance to make longstanding IRL friendships with most people, even other guys, cause they talk to me for like 5 minutes & there like "Oh this guy's removed".
And so some may grant me the courtesy of their momentary attention, but this is not a relationship of peers, if you understand me.
And that's something that inevitably gets amplified by both the economic angle, but also the gender inequality angle.
IDK, I hope I'm making sense.
I think this is the first time I’ve seen you articulate all of this and just wanted to say I appreciate you telling us about it. Not to say you haven’t before, but I’ve seen you around for a while and just never gotten this context
Oh, last time you said you were old I thought you were in your 60s or something. I'm pretty sure there are other millenials around here who can relate to some degree.
The discrimination sucks, though. I'm sorry. I've seen that kind of thing firsthand, and have even heard about nonprofits taking advantage of people. We really need to work on being better to differently abled people as a society. And it's stupid when you're a minority and the only place to find any solidarity is on the internet. This sort of thing used to be true for queer people too. It's like you gotta be really deep inside your own head to not see the effect it has on how we organize all of society.
:chomsky-yes-honey:
TY.
Material relations def. matter.
While a friend of mine who had during uni a spare room that is nearly as large as my whole flat in which she would regularly host parties, get togethers, etc. while my non flatshare apt. was large enough for 2-3 people max. That lead to a significant comparable reduction in social interaction. Which changed once I got a larger flat to host meetings, too.
So while my experience is different than yours I can anecdotally confirm your point.
Is there however some social, common or communal space that you can more or less easily reach to be involved in routine social interaction? In my experience radio amateurs, hacker spaces, workshops like with tools, and neurodiverse meetups were groups in which autistic people were not uncommon and not seldomly had organizational roles. Oh also my food not bombs has a core team which deliver really good work.
I do feel your want for long lasting connection and friendship though. Most places I experienced that were common shared projects, but not all commonly shared projects lead to that.
I live in the rural midwest, so for me the answer is that there is church; and nothing else unless I want to drive for more than an hour out of town, which I can't do on my leg right now, really. And I do not like to go there, because they do not respect me, or share my values.
That def. sounds understandable. It is a hard situation. When I lived in a slightly more rural region than now we had some associations and groups which would drive around to bring events to small (read 1000-2000 pop) places and to fetch people who were not able to commute themselves for other events. However it is was from perfect.
A big part of it is that a healthy masculine relationship needs to include things which are typically gatekept by patriarchal men to only occur in romantic relationships with women. Men in platonic relationships ought to be able meet needs for physical touch, emotional intimacy, etc. It’s easier said than done sometimes, but anti-patriarchal men’s groups have the potential to genuinely subversive to capital for the alienation reasons you stated
deleted by creator
:yes-sicko: