Roger Waters is very dumb but dumb people tend to like him because he says some things they like. So what happens when he 'debates' an even dumber liberal on...
Roger Waters - Comfortably Numb, Bad Empanada - Confident and Dumb
Lol I mean at this level that’s just cringe polcomp type shit. Politics does t exist on a flat plane. It’s really just an ultra view to say ok actually anything that isn’t particularly my interpretation of Marx is to the right of me. Everyone else was busy building something, incl non marxists to be honest. People exist all over the place wrt to interpretations of socialism, liberalism, whatever
But whatever you consider yourself, and wherever you see yourself on an imaginary plane, if your ideology consistently leads you to side with imperialist nations (sometimes no for some but generally often) and keeps you from seeing a country that lifted countless people out of poverty, has been basically the sole country to make the general gains against poverty in the last half decade and if you take them out it completely falls apart, is the only country that consistently holds capital accountable to the law and not above it, amongst millions of other advancements, or take the responses to conditions placed upon them by the imperialist west in dprk and other countries cases as universally bad and exempts them from being socialist bc you’re too caught up in believing imperialist nonsense, than that ideology should be unwelcome
Again I’m fine with literally all stripes of socialism. I don’t agree with my anarchists comrades on stuff but I think there’s utility in their views. I specifically don’t think chauvinism and the inherent defeatism of ultras on one end, or the radlib western leftists that won’t support anything outside of the imperial core on the other is worth having in and is frankly detrimental to the movement. Tbh it shouldn’t be a big bar to cross for leftists
I never said I didn't critically support China ... you inferred that, I literally would just prefer different kinds of leadership and those people do exist ... they are just more marginal than the ones you support so you are by default right bc you agree more closely with the faction in power, would you accuse a maoist in the government in China as not supporting China bc they don't agree with XJP on a theoretical basis, I guess they're just a chauvinist defeatist ultra radlib western leftist
I’m not talking about you or anything about your ideology specifically at all, I’m talking about ultras and “radlibs” getting called ultras for broadly not supporting aes and often falling into the trap of supporting imperialist nations bc that’s what we’ve been talking about up to this point.
fair enough, it's inherently sectarian though, virtually everyone who is not just a textbook ML, is basically an ultra in that definition especially if you don't inclide the "often" part bc in this community that almost never happens here, I'm sure it does on twitter and reddit
A lot of our non-ml comrades seem to handle it fine. :shrug-outta-hecks: and just bc it’s common to fall for people in imperial nations to fall for imperialist dogma doesn’t mean it can’t be regarded as a bad thing.
It’s honestly to be expected that that should be the case, that’s why it has to be critiqued and talked about. Most white People aren’t gonna understand intuitively how their white identity privileges them in societies built on white supremacy, you generally have to have a dialogue about it. I think it functions similarly, we are by default gonna probably side with countries we’re familiar with especially over ones that we grew up being taught to revile that do all these awful things allegedly. That’s the self sustaining propaganda of imperialism at work.
I can’t speak for everyone but to me, ultimately it’s just a good line for building solidarity with aes countries and looking to models that are working in the real world we could take and apply to our own conditions. We have to have some values on things, we’re all choosing what not to have and what to have. We generally would agree here that wage theft by capitalists is bad for example but might get some push back in spaces where they don’t agree.
I don’t think these are inherently bad takes to have spread through leftist movements in the west, would go a long way to undoing and combatting imperialist brainworms, and I’ve seen plenty of non-ml comrades incorporate them into their thinking so I don’t think that “seek to be non chauvinist, and critically support aes” is inherently at odds with non-mls or is a wholly ml-only view to take.
can’t speak for everyone but to me, ultimately it’s just a good line for building solidarity with aes countries and looking to models that are working in the real world we could take and apply to our own conditions. We have to have some values on things, we’re all choosing what not to have and what to have. We generally would agree here that wage theft by capitalists is bad for example but might get some push back in spaces where they don’t agree.
it is a good thing
I think that is well and good, I don't think ML in this vein of thought are bad or wrong, I think they are comrades and it's just a small difference of opinion, and I just think it would be nice to not just fire off a term people use regularly on other sectarian forums as a way to dismiss things you don't agree with in a complete bad faith way, like 99% of the usage of ultras is here
telling a user who has been here since the beginning of the site that they would be happier on some other forum while you are being collectively dunked on by dozens of other old heads is a real move for a two month old account
Lol I mean at this level that’s just cringe polcomp type shit. Politics does t exist on a flat plane. It’s really just an ultra view to say ok actually anything that isn’t particularly my interpretation of Marx is to the right of me. Everyone else was busy building something, incl non marxists to be honest. People exist all over the place wrt to interpretations of socialism, liberalism, whatever
But whatever you consider yourself, and wherever you see yourself on an imaginary plane, if your ideology consistently leads you to side with imperialist nations (sometimes no for some but generally often) and keeps you from seeing a country that lifted countless people out of poverty, has been basically the sole country to make the general gains against poverty in the last half decade and if you take them out it completely falls apart, is the only country that consistently holds capital accountable to the law and not above it, amongst millions of other advancements, or take the responses to conditions placed upon them by the imperialist west in dprk and other countries cases as universally bad and exempts them from being socialist bc you’re too caught up in believing imperialist nonsense, than that ideology should be unwelcome
CW hostile, but I also had no clue what they were saying, I'm sorry
???
Ultras bad
CW hostile, I'm sorry
that's okay for you to believe, I think you would be happier in a place with less diversity of opinion
Again I’m fine with literally all stripes of socialism. I don’t agree with my anarchists comrades on stuff but I think there’s utility in their views. I specifically don’t think chauvinism and the inherent defeatism of ultras on one end, or the radlib western leftists that won’t support anything outside of the imperial core on the other is worth having in and is frankly detrimental to the movement. Tbh it shouldn’t be a big bar to cross for leftists
CW midly hostile, I'm sorry
I never said I didn't critically support China ... you inferred that, I literally would just prefer different kinds of leadership and those people do exist ... they are just more marginal than the ones you support so you are by default right bc you agree more closely with the faction in power, would you accuse a maoist in the government in China as not supporting China bc they don't agree with XJP on a theoretical basis, I guess they're just a chauvinist defeatist ultra radlib western leftist
I’m not talking about you or anything about your ideology specifically at all, I’m talking about ultras and “radlibs” getting called ultras for broadly not supporting aes and often falling into the trap of supporting imperialist nations bc that’s what we’ve been talking about up to this point.
fair enough, it's inherently sectarian though, virtually everyone who is not just a textbook ML, is basically an ultra in that definition especially if you don't inclide the "often" part bc in this community that almost never happens here, I'm sure it does on twitter and reddit
A lot of our non-ml comrades seem to handle it fine. :shrug-outta-hecks: and just bc it’s common to fall for people in imperial nations to fall for imperialist dogma doesn’t mean it can’t be regarded as a bad thing.
It’s honestly to be expected that that should be the case, that’s why it has to be critiqued and talked about. Most white People aren’t gonna understand intuitively how their white identity privileges them in societies built on white supremacy, you generally have to have a dialogue about it. I think it functions similarly, we are by default gonna probably side with countries we’re familiar with especially over ones that we grew up being taught to revile that do all these awful things allegedly. That’s the self sustaining propaganda of imperialism at work.
I can’t speak for everyone but to me, ultimately it’s just a good line for building solidarity with aes countries and looking to models that are working in the real world we could take and apply to our own conditions. We have to have some values on things, we’re all choosing what not to have and what to have. We generally would agree here that wage theft by capitalists is bad for example but might get some push back in spaces where they don’t agree.
I don’t think these are inherently bad takes to have spread through leftist movements in the west, would go a long way to undoing and combatting imperialist brainworms, and I’ve seen plenty of non-ml comrades incorporate them into their thinking so I don’t think that “seek to be non chauvinist, and critically support aes” is inherently at odds with non-mls or is a wholly ml-only view to take.
it is a good thing
I think that is well and good, I don't think ML in this vein of thought are bad or wrong, I think they are comrades and it's just a small difference of opinion, and I just think it would be nice to not just fire off a term people use regularly on other sectarian forums as a way to dismiss things you don't agree with in a complete bad faith way, like 99% of the usage of ultras is here
telling a user who has been here since the beginning of the site that they would be happier on some other forum while you are being collectively dunked on by dozens of other old heads is a real move for a two month old account
CW hostile, I'm sorry
you are hostile and unpleasant