• The_Walkening [none/use name]
      ·
      2 years ago

      I think the OP was trying to point out the fact that whiteness is a social construct through historical example of how previous ethnic groups became "white" but totally bodged the phrasing of that.

        • The_Walkening [none/use name]
          ·
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          I mean it's good historical context to show how much of a made-up concept it is but at the same time I just dunno how useful it is just in the here and now - I think that it really wouldn't change how those "new whites" feel about the current and historical marginalization of other groups.

    • StewartCopelandsDad [he/him]
      ·
      2 years ago

      According to the author

      Maybe it’s how I worded the thread, or how capitalism demands the social reproduction of an individually view of the world. But many people have thought I’m talking about genealogy. When I’m in fact talking about sociology that forces you to shift a liberal understanding of white

      ‘Who were you before you were white’ isn't proposing an individualist perspective. More a sociological one that calls to you to learn how whiteness was violently enforced onto the working class to maintain the domination of capitalism and manufacture consent for colonialism.

      I don't really care about this

      • FuckItNewName [they/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        It’s just not true, really. Whiteness was not forced onto the working class. Early colonizers imported and enslaved their proletariat, which allowed even white wage laborers to gain a petty bourgeois class character by the end of their lives. That is the American dream: white class mobility enabled by an BIPOC proletariat. It’s evolved to have more nebulous racial barriers, but is still largely intact.

        The idea that whiteness hurt white prols and black slaves alike is yet another colonizer myth

        • regul [any]
          ·
          2 years ago

          I think they're talking about how race was used as a wedge in labor movements in the 20th century.

            • MendingBenjamin [they/them]
              ·
              edit-2
              2 years ago

              I switch accounts once a month or so. Guess I’ll switch to an older one. Being white isn’t petty bourgeois. That’s not the point. Some relevant quotes from Settlers that should explain the point better (TLDR at the bottom):

              This one on the myth of false equivalence between poor whites and black slaves:

              The mythology of the white masses pretends that while the evil planter and the London merchant grew fat on the profits of the slave labor, the "poor white" of the South, the Northern small farmer and white worker were all uninvolved in slavery and benefited not at all from it. The mythology suggests that slavery even lowered the living standard of the white masses by supposedly holding down wages and monopolizing vast tracts of farmland. Thus, it is alleged, slavery was not in the interests of the white masses.

              And then these accounts of the colonial class character during the American Revolution:

              The Euro-Amerikan class structure at the time of the 1775 War of Independence was revealing:

              • 80% bourgeois & petit-bourgeois:
                • 10% — Capitalists: Great Planters, large merchants, etc.
                • 20% — Large farmers, professionals, tradesmen & other upper-middle elements.
                • 40% — Small land-owning farmers
                • 10% — Artisans: blacksmiths, coopers, carpenters, shipwrights, etc.
              • 15% — Temporary workers, usually soon moving upwards into the ranks of the small farmers
              • 5% — Laborers

              Not only was the bourgeois class itself quite large, but some 70% of the total population of settlers were in the various, propertied middle classes. The overwhelming majority were landowners, including many of the artisans and tradesmen, and an even larger portion of the Euro-Amerikans were self-employed or preparing to be. The small "poor" element of lumpen and permanent laborers was only 5% of the settler population, and without influence or cohesion in such a propertied society.

              The plantation areas, which were obviously the most dominated by a small elite owning a disproportionate share of the wealth, showed no lesser degree of general settler privilege and unification. South Carolina was the state with the highest degree of large plantation centralization; yet there, too, no settler working class development was evident. The South Carolina settler class structure shows only an intensification of the same bourgeois features evident at the national level:

              • 86% bourgeois & petit-bourgeois
                • 3% — Great Planter elite (above 1,000 acres landholding)
                • 15% — planters (500-999 acres)
                • 8% — merchants & shopowners
                • 5% — Professionals
                • 42% — Middle & small farmers (under 500 acres)
                • 10% — Artisans
              • 14% — Laborers (majority only temporary)

              When we speak of the small, land-owning farmer as the largest single element in settler society, it is important to see what this means. An example is Rebecca Royston of Calvert County, Maryland, who died in 1740 with an estate worth 81 £ (which places her well in the middle of the small-medium farmers). That sum represented the value of 200 acres of farmland, 31 head of cattle, 15 of sheep, 29 pigs, 1,463 lbs. of tobacco stored for market, 5 feather beds, 2 old guns, assorted furniture, tools and kitchen utensils, and the contract of an 8 year-old indentured child servant. No wealth, no luxury, but a life with some small property, food, shelter, and a cash crop for market. Certainly a far reach upwards from the bitter, bare existence of the colonial Afrikan proletariat (or, for that matter, the British or French proletariat of the period).

              TLDR Read Settlers

        • sooper_dooper_roofer [none/use name]
          ·
          2 years ago

          It’s just not true, really. Whiteness was not forced onto the working class.

          Yea some seem to think that only the elites benefitted from whiteness and that every bad take is a deliberately constructed FBI op

    • Ho_Chi_Chungus [she/her]
      ·
      2 years ago

      by focusing really hard, you can regain the mentality of your last non white ancestor who was a Proto-Proto-Proto-Proto-Proto-Proto-Hittite nomadic herder 45,000 years ago in Anatolia and become not white or something i don't fuckin know

      • sooper_dooper_roofer [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        by focusing really hard, you can regain the mentality of your last non white ancestor who was a Proto-Proto-Proto-Proto-Proto-Proto-Hittite nomadic herder 45,000 years ago in Anatolia

        nah You could just go back 5,000 years ago to the Proto-Indoeuropeans

        https://i.redd.it/a8kbspvesw871.jpg

        physical "whiteness" (in the sense of a population-level pigmentation that is lighter than Middle Eastern ethnicities) is only a few thousand years old, and happened due to agrarianism (bordering on lactovegetarianism) in a dark climate (much more need for vitamin D)

        You can see the same thing in East Asia, where Chinese people are lighter skinned than Siberian tribes despite living further south--they ate less animal flesh.

        However there were some hunter-gatherers in the north of Europe (mainly Scandinavia) that could be considered very close to "white" in terms of skin/eye/hair pigmentation