Romans for all their faults very much believed in a Rome more important than any individual Roman
Eh. They espoused the notion publicly, as a means of cultivating a loyal volunteer military and a unified body politic. But there wasn't a shortage of Roman narcissists in the Republican Period. The Empire was absolutely rife with them.
I'm not saying selfishness is new I'm saying the idea of individualism being a societal value wasn't a Roman cultural value like it is an American one how the individual Romans acted isn't entirely the point as I was discussing how the Roman culture believed someone should act
Sure. Protestant Work Ethic Individualism wasn't really a thing. But the idea of the Roman Tribe, particularly in the later era, was far more about one's immediate family than one's national allegiance or ethnicity. The ideas of patriarchy and filial loyalty, self-aggrandizement and demagoguery, and individual stoic virtue were well established.
You didn't have the same kind of western colonial frontiersman icons. But you definitely had the core idea of the ubermensch - the Herculean/Spartan champion, the Marcus Aurelius styled philosopher stoic, and the Marcus Licinius Crassus proto-libertarian business tyrant - already operating within the empire. These icons are routinely invoked by modern-day individualist ideologues. So I imagine an American in Julius Caeser's Court would be more relatable than you give him credit.
Eh. They espoused the notion publicly, as a means of cultivating a loyal volunteer military and a unified body politic. But there wasn't a shortage of Roman narcissists in the Republican Period. The Empire was absolutely rife with them.
I'm not saying selfishness is new I'm saying the idea of individualism being a societal value wasn't a Roman cultural value like it is an American one how the individual Romans acted isn't entirely the point as I was discussing how the Roman culture believed someone should act
Sure. Protestant Work Ethic Individualism wasn't really a thing. But the idea of the Roman Tribe, particularly in the later era, was far more about one's immediate family than one's national allegiance or ethnicity. The ideas of patriarchy and filial loyalty, self-aggrandizement and demagoguery, and individual stoic virtue were well established.
You didn't have the same kind of western colonial frontiersman icons. But you definitely had the core idea of the ubermensch - the Herculean/Spartan champion, the Marcus Aurelius styled philosopher stoic, and the Marcus Licinius Crassus proto-libertarian business tyrant - already operating within the empire. These icons are routinely invoked by modern-day individualist ideologues. So I imagine an American in Julius Caeser's Court would be more relatable than you give him credit.