Shouldn't have said anything, now I'm getting paragraphs upon paragraphs about Putler and how the West has a moral obligation to prolong the war in Ukraine for as long as possible 
Also while apparently it can't be denied that the far right has grown somewhat stronger in Ukraine, the Ukrainian military had to rely on militias such as Azov so they wouldn't lose, we should not worry because they haven't seen that much electoral success
inb4 he reluctantly admits azov is just out-and-out fash, but then immediately shifts goalpost to "ok but there's a big fash problem in the russian army too, you know" (aka the 'my dad')
Already did, but apparently the far right isn't a big problem because they're not winning elections or something
I guess Zelensky suspending elections is a pretty good way to not lose any
They (literally in this case) hold a gun to the government in Ukraine. They don't need to win any elections, they just need to ban all left wing opposition in the name of anti-collaboration (done) and then wait for the liberals to fuck everything up (happening), then come into power on a stabbed in the back myth.
Edit: The only way this doesn't happen is if Russia literally kills most of them, and even then, that will not stop the sons and daughters of these nationalists from repeating the same refrains as their mothers and fathers. The only fortunate thing is that the conscription age is still not under 27, so we are not yet seeing literal children being sent to die in this war like near the end of WWI. However, that does lead me to the idea that these new Ukrainian nationalists will not be hardened enough to take the government by force. They will be the soft children of American compradors, claiming the west stabbed them in the back while campaigning using western funding.
Putin blew up Prigo's plane and libs still run with this narrative lol
I understand not supporting Ukraine due to it for example banning leftist opposition parties, removing rights for minority languages, fascists in the military etc. But I also see a lot of people actively cheering on and supporting Russia which I dont understand. Is a reactionary dictatorship really preferred to neoliberalism?
I also understand its horrible that the west is using the Ukrainian people as a meat grinder to occupy and weaken Russia, but would a Russian invasion and russification be much better?
I feel like we need to be better than just contrarian, though I cant honestly decide which is best or least worse.
Is a reactionary dictatorship really preferred to neoliberalism
Ukraine is a fascist neo nazi dictatorship, russia is preferred.
We're communists here, heres how marx viewed inter bourgeoisie conflicts
'In that house one never hesitated to take a stand against the conflicts in which one could recognize "the different fractions of the bourgeoisie." Neutrality was abhorred. [...] Marx hunted neutral souls to the gates of hell'
(machine translated) from "Gespräche mit Marx und Engels", section writte by Charles Longuet, Marx's son in law
Most people here consider russia to be the lesser of two evils, since it generally does not fill itself with nazi iconography, does not ally with the united states, and does not persecute national minorities to any extent like ukraine does
Denying the existence Ukrainian language or culture sounds like persecution to me. Like I absolutely agree Ukraine is an awful country, but Im not convinced Russia is better.
As far as I understand the Nazis are in the military of Ukraine, not the actual government. Though banning Hungarian and Russian in schools iirc is something a nazi could do... Do you have any sources I could read up on?
it really depends what you mean by "not the actual government", what kind of government enlists nazis into its military and makes entire large battalions of them and gives them large combat roles like the defence of key citys (azovstal etc) without being nazis themselves. When zelensky was asked what he thought of the praise of Bandera, a nazi collaborator that massacred jews in ww2 he said
"There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine."
https://www.xn--lecanardrpublicain-jwb.net/IMG/article_PDF/Volodymyr-Zelensky-on-Stepan-Bandera-He-was-one-of-those_a1006.pdf
I dont know about you, but me personally i would never call a jew hunting nazi an indisputable hero unless i myself was a nazi.
Moving on what are youre sources on denying the existance of langauge and culture, heres a statement from putin himself saying persecution on such basis is unjust https://tass.com/politics/1523075. (in response to people being unjustly jailed on such basis, my point being this not that attitude is non existant, it certainly exists, its that it doesnt exist at the very top level, the seat of power as it were)
Finally, if you think my sources are bullshit or that you cant trust the words of the leaders we can reduce it to its simplest form. If russia and ukraine were equally evil in their actions, russia would still be the lesser evil from my point of view due to me being a communist. Russia winning the war destablises the west, and destabilisation of the west increases the chances of communist movements (and non communist national liberation movements) being more successful in the global south. We can see such national liberation movements in the sahel states right now, who are throwing off the chains of their imperial masters more and more. A world where the US cannot win is a world where more such movements flourish.
And if you say well russia will become the imperial hegemon, and that will be just as bad as the us, that is an entire different discussion that I am not capable to disprove as it would require showing that russia does not act as an imperial power under lenins definition of imperialism, which would require economic analysis that im not capable of. Its my inclination that russia does not have the power or the ambition to become a unitary hegemon, I cannot imagine a world where the US is dethroned from hegemon and russia ascends to hegemon, while china, with 500 times the industrial capacity of russia, just sits there.
Russia has elections and political parties and separation of powers, it is no more of a 'dictatorship' than the USA or any european country.
Do you really think Putin won 88% of the vote? Also consider the fact that most of the opposition was barred from even running.
prove election fraud or GTFO with your racist phrenology, if putin can brainwash his people or rig elections so easily with a fraction of america's GDP then we are fucked and should stop resisting the fucking psychic russian ubermensch lmfao, its the same shit as arguing that china is a 1984 dystopia because the government has 80% or higher approval rating, pure racism. show us the evidence of election fraud so we can evaluate it.
Meanwhile on r/NonCredibleDefense:
It turns out one of my friends is Putler shill Tankie type
Shouldn't have said anything, now I'm getting paragraphs upon paragraphs about ZelenSSkyy and how Putler has a moral obligation to eradicate the freedom loving Azov Slavas in Ukraine
Ask them if the leftist position is to set alight trade union buildings with people in them.
Ukraine is the true litmus test for leftists when it comes to international geopolitics.
You will really find out which of those who call themselves leftists will be the ones doing the bidding for imperialists when revolutions finally arrive at the imperial core.
One of the most interesting observations that this whole Ukraine war revealed is just how stark the difference in position is between leftists in the imperial core versus leftists in the Global South. The vast majority of the latter immediately recognized why Russia is on the correct side of the history, while the former spent months arguing and failing to understand how imperialism works.
It’s almost like victims of abusers can immediately recognize abusive behavior in others, while abusers themselves keep failing to understand, “how is this an abuse? she hit me first!”. That doesn’t mean victims can’t be shitty themselves, but it certainly doesn’t make them less of a victim of abuse.
Even most countries that do not have a left wing government, let alone AES, stood with Russia and refused to participate while the Western imperialists asked them to sanction Russia. It is truly one of those times when the Global South finally stood up against their imperialist oppressors and refused to do their bidding.
OP, you are from the imperial core, I suppose?
Idk, I think gaza is a better litmus test. You can easily be misinformed about Ukraine being good.
I think it's harder for leftists to get Gaza wrong.
This is why Ukraine is the litmus test. Even libs could see the genocide taking place in Gaza.
But to understand the Ukraine war, you really need to understand how imperialism works, not the lib definition of “conquering a foreign territory”.
Yes it also was a dead giveaway for all of the "comrades" who do nothing other than treat it like a foregone conclusion the Zionists will succeed. They frame all of their objections that way. Morally. Liberals, ultras who see Hamas as an imperialist proxy, people like that. The stragglers who have nothing other than propaganda addiction tempered by discomfort. Ukraine/Palestine people are always liberal Zionists.
It's a litmus test for whether someone's views on geopolitics be taken seriously, not a moral purity test. Someone can be a good person and be wrong about Ukraine, that only partly overlaps with having good politics.
Also, genocide in Gaza has resulted in the countries going against it, in ICJ, I don't remember seeing anything similar about the war in Ukraine
Ukraine has actually lost a case at the ICJ recently to do with issues around the war.
I thought the general opinion was that of indifference, rather than explicit support? I didn't research this well, so I would like to get more info.
It takes more than indifference for Global South countries to stand up to Western imperialism, especially against the US which controls the global access to dollar and to trade.
General opinion among which groups? If you investigate you'll find out how specific it really is.
Yeah, I just need to research this. I currently don't know any news article that had talked about explicit support from countries like Chile (random country that I've remembered), I quess this is the best place to look into.
I just don't think very highly of eurocommunists or the KKE or PSV or certain US parties which are under the umbrella of "sectarianism" and therefore immune to criticism here <3
In fact the more I actually explain it to you, the shorter my time here will be
TBH that's annoying but not a huge deal. It's a pretty standard opinion if you have no history education (99% of Americans).
Now, if they're also pro-Israel...They see Russia and Israel as the greatest threats to world peace. I'm just kicking myself for saying anything at all about the Ukrainian military and their love for
Nazi iconographyesoteric occult symbolstraditional Slavic imagery. I have no interest in litigating this shit
Here's why your friend is a.misguided fool and feel free to use this: as a leftist your interest when war between two bourgeois powers go to war is primarily to minimize the amount of working class people being killed because they are the clas you're attempting to uphold. This means that the war and therefore killing ending earlier is better so aside from not having a war in the first place the fastest route to peace is the best route. In this case that is Ukraine's surrender, doesn't need to be unconditional and could probably have been more conditional earlier but at the end of the day every way ends at the negotiation table and Ukraine's power at that table has only lessened.
He believes Russians will [CW: SV]
spoiler
rape
and massacre Ukrainians en masse if they win. He also believes that if Putin isn't taught a lesson now the Russians will do the same to other neighboring states next, because they're monstrously evil barbarians apparently
Hmm, I don't hang out with people who are like this. My friends are leftists and know wassup and my co-eorkers and acquaintances are politically ignorant as hell but have the humility to believe what I tell em cause I can explain history good. If someone does have those views they keep it to themselves around me because I don't suffer bullshit like that and will give someone a really really long lecture.
He's a breadtube sort of leftist that used to send me videos of that one greasy debate bro we're not supposed to mention, though that was a few years back before some of his controversies including the recent one that I think kind of ended his career
He's also been sending me every single article about Donald Trump for like 8 years now
He's a breadtube sort of leftist that used to send me videos of that one greasy debate bro we're not supposed to mention
I hate to tell you, but there ain't no such thing as an ex-Vaushite. Anybody who falls for that blatant huckster for more than five minutes is a deeply un-serious person on a base level and shouldn't be trusted with making toast. Even if you talk them out of the Vaush cult they'll just find another one in a month or so. Just drop the loser.
I watched Vaush for a month or two and breadtube for years. Now I’ve read Lenin. I’m not looking back. People can learn and it’s weird to insist they can’t.
I accept my fate. After watching his stuff, anything would be better.
This kind of "omg he saw propaganda, his mind is forever impure" attitude is deeply unserious. We live in a river of imperialist propaganda, writing off anyone who ever drank from the river is a losing strategy. You don't have to be the person to do the 101 work mind you, and maybe this person does just suck shit, but your rubric is overly reductive
Look I've dealt with Vaush's creepy cult for fucking years and the bullshit I've had to endure from them has left me with zero sympathy for them. Especially at this point, where we know the dude has pedo hentai on his fucking computer, anyone STILL defending him after that I have no patience for. If you want to try and pull them over fine but sorry I'm not ever going to want to be in a room alone with any of those fucks. It's so blatantly obvious what a creep that dude is at this point I really don't buy anyone leaving his community ONLY NOW is doing it out of genuine self reflection and not fear that even more damning proof that he's a pedo and likely and Op comes out and isn't just trying to save face.
its more about accepting that many people will fall back to whatever the default view is among the majority of their peers, you can explain things to people in person and they'll act like they understand but the next day they are spouting the same talking points, because that's what their media and social group promotes and they spend more time with them than the Lone Leftist of their social circle.
We go back decades. Around the 2016 election cycle he had a pretty severe psychological episode and he became hyper-fixated on politics. He self-medicates with various substances on top of the actual medication he takes. He stays up days at a time and consumes political content, then posts entire essays into my inbox while arguing with people online on like 20 different tabs. I've learned to just ignore the political stuff
please, please talk to him about this. i was slipping down that rabbit hole and if my friends hadn't pulled ke out sooner i would have been gone
Then I'd just drop the matter but he has to agree to do so as well do a disengage. Neither of your opinions affect the matter. They're on the right page with Gaza though right? Cause Ukraine guy who can stop arguing about it if told to do so is one thing, but some stuff is a friend ship ender.
They heard that one and invented a take that "Putler wants to genocide and destroy all Ukranians" which is obvious nonsense give even UN put the military to civilian losses ratio in the war as something like 50 to 1 meaning it's probably the most restrained major conflict since the dawn of industrial warfare.
All of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I have a moral obligation to make
It's a common baby leftist failing. Think about how many supported the libyan colour revolt uncritically, or the white hats and us aligned militias in Syria. Manufactured consent is powerful.
Of course in both cases there there were active independent socialist militias, and it's hard not to have had an idealist desire to see the DCNS win. But we should have had better material analysis.
In Ukraine it's chuds vs open fascists with an increasingly strained liberal comedian facade and the poor bastards of the Donbass republics in the middle.
I sympathise with your friend, I dearly want to see Putin get the wall but this is clearly a US destabilisation and more critically the concept of a Banderan Fascist state on the border of the EU should terrify Liberals as well far more than any Russian hegemony over its historic sphere.
It's a common baby leftist failing
Uhhh huhhhhh sure
Think about how many supported the libyan colour revolt uncritically
Oh that kind of leftist, ic wym
Yeah I can go back and easily dig up Zizek shitting on anti-war protestors during Iraq and yet people here paraded him around along with the rest of the worst philosophers of the 20th century to feel smart until he said something obviously transphobic.
Well you know as much as I hate to say it, I think Norm Finkelstein published an unhinged transphobic essay on his blog or whatever the hell too. Not defending Zizek but just pointing out how this can happen from time to time.
Gotta love leftists measuring importance of a movement based on electoral success. Fucking social fascists dude
Unhinge your jaw and consume them. Later, as they fall into the toilet, they will be born anew as a hexbearian poster
No, they gotta be vored by a Pig. Said Pig will then shit them out as Poop onto their Balls, in the holy Pig Poop Balls ritual. Only then they'll become a true Hexbearian
Same. My friend keeps dropping takes like "did you know that Russian soldiers are all drugged beyond belief to get them fighting" or "Russians torture the people just like Israel does". For me they are just these lines here and there that make me think he is following some very propagandy channels somewhere, but I refuse to engage with him and instead just sort of brush over these takes.
But I have wondered where they are coming from. I am not saying bad things aren't done during war, but these seem sus.
Im sure they're hopped on amphetamines but that's because every single army in a protracted war since fucking Crimea has shived uppers at their soldiers.
Your moral obligation is to ask him if he's pissing and shidding and crying, and if he thinks that Putler will be defeated if he pisses and shidds and cries enough.
We can't let Putler win or the Russians will unleash [CW: SA Mention]
spoiler
rape and murder squads
in the areas they control and also kidnap children, and also attack Nato next
How does this friend of yours feel about what's going in Gaza right now?
Ask him what it feels like to worship Khorne, the God of Blood and War
prolong the war as long as possible
Really saying "
You absolutely have to die" to UA citizens...
whataboutism 
