The only reason this is happening is because Vicky3 is a game that makes a separation between "the cool and smart entrepreneur making mad bank" and the player character, which is more or less, "the spirit of the nation". Most games make you the exploiter for you to enjoy the power fantasy and as such invite no analysis from a player that didn't want to engage in one to begin with. But here, these upperclassmen are obviously hoarding wealth for their own benefit which in the game's simulation is just money sitting around in swiss bank accounts rotting away, to the direct detriment of the "spirit of the nation". If you were playing as some working class prole or similar gamers would bomb the game as preachy marxist bullshit made to demonise the cool and handsome wealth creators, but as you're this third party which wants to increase wealth creation nationwide, as a collective project, that is frustrated continuously, both economically, and politically, making their polity weaker, and more likely to get owned in military engagements, it instantly clicks with them even if they don't want to engage in any kind of analysis, because the analysis is done for them, you are being stopped from doing this obviously good thing that would improve your polity by these arseholes specifically, they're doing it in this way, and they're doing it for this reason, have fun idiot.
It's a super cool game. I'm actually quite surprised at how realistic, or at least believable the simulation is at times, the interactions between interest groups and how each tries to cling or climb to power is basically what historical materialism tells us.
It's still buggy and wonky as hell but unless they do a 180 on the core mechanics and make them more gamey it's gonna turn out amazing when they polish it up.
Idk it's already kinda gamey. You can just hit the reform government button and kick people out of power. I've been ignoring the loss to legitimacy with no problem, they don't actually seem to give a shit until you start passing laws they don't like
They could probably rebalance that but it is kinda realistic too. Laws are the thing that can significantly change one interest group's grasp over power, it makes sense they panic when you effectively try to oust them out of power with a different tax law or something.
You're right that illegitimate governments have too little penalties though.
The whole "justice system" usually gets this treatment from player too, since the traditional punishments in Dwarven society are flavorful and cool but extremely harmful if you actually carry them out and the assignment of blame for broken laws is fairly arbitrary. It's far more useful to the player to simply accept that minor crimes happen and just maximize happiness so that they don't happen too often than to try to find and punish law breaking dwarves.
I think this rings especially true because a lot of gamers and redditors in real life honestly connect more with the "spirit of the nation" than with the working class. Not to generalize the entire hobby, bu I think a lot of gamers are at least well-off enough to be distracted away from the real life contradictions of capitalism so that they don't have to think about labour rights or economic systems. This leaves them to fantasize about how they would improve society if they were, god-like, in the shoes of the "spirit of the nation". Things like "oh, if I could control the United States, I would prosecute Trump, and raise taxes on the rich, or build more houses in such-and-such place." People like this do not have the class analysis required to understand why these things would not work so easily in real life (the rich would just flee the country with their profits, more houses does not actually give unhoused people homes, etc.). And this is the hypothetical milquetoast liberal gamer, to say nothing of the chud gamer.
Thus, when they are confronted with some of these roadblocks in a video game for the first time, they do not understand it at all. Video games are usually about enacting any fantastical policy you want, with the only pushback usually being simple economics or math, like their money number or stability number hadn't gotten high enough yet. Their brains are broken.
You hit the nail on the head, and I completely missed this nuance. "The spirit of the nation" is the most enlightened of centrists, you are beyond politics altogether, they do not affect you at all and all you care about is, at the end of the day, maximizing some numbers. The country could be anarcho-monarchist for all you care. But it just so happens that one of those two number (the other being state revenue, through taxes, tributes, war reparations, foreign aid and what have you) is material conditions. You're trying to increase material conditions (and literacy) for as many people in your country as you can. This makes you a communist from first principles. You don't want to be a leftist, you just want to increase material conditions for the many, not the few.
Reminds me of Timberborn, a city builder with no objective beyond maximizing your population's happiness. Beavers don't have a capitalist economy, they have rational central planning and share the same working hours across the board - and you make them happier by first securing survival and then increasing the availability of luxuries and free time.
Yeah, I should have probably made it clear that "the spirit of the nation" can refer to other paradox games or simulation games, not just Vicky 3. EU4 (in)famously has its mana/monarch point system, which is much more abstracted compared to Vicky 3's pretty functional economics. I'm glad to see that in Vicky 3 people's usual strategies or gameplay styles don't work because of more realistic economics, which is leading to posts like OP where the gamers are realizing class consciousness.
the rich would just flee the country with their profits
I heard a really great point about this the other day. That the truly rich have most of their wealth because they own all of our shit. They can run off with a sack of cash and maybe it won't be worth going after them in some sanctuary country.
But they're not taking fucking Yankee Stadium with them. They're not taking our apartments with them.
Absolutely, which is why nationalization (actually seizing the means) is much more in depth of a discussion than just saying "tax the rich" and not elaborating.
The only reason this is happening is because Vicky3 is a game that makes a separation between "the cool and smart entrepreneur making mad bank" and the player character, which is more or less, "the spirit of the nation". Most games make you the exploiter for you to enjoy the power fantasy and as such invite no analysis from a player that didn't want to engage in one to begin with. But here, these upperclassmen are obviously hoarding wealth for their own benefit which in the game's simulation is just money sitting around in swiss bank accounts rotting away, to the direct detriment of the "spirit of the nation". If you were playing as some working class prole or similar gamers would bomb the game as preachy marxist bullshit made to demonise the cool and handsome wealth creators, but as you're this third party which wants to increase wealth creation nationwide, as a collective project, that is frustrated continuously, both economically, and politically, making their polity weaker, and more likely to get owned in military engagements, it instantly clicks with them even if they don't want to engage in any kind of analysis, because the analysis is done for them, you are being stopped from doing this obviously good thing that would improve your polity by these arseholes specifically, they're doing it in this way, and they're doing it for this reason, have fun idiot.
Oh man that is so fucking cool
It's a super cool game. I'm actually quite surprised at how realistic, or at least believable the simulation is at times, the interactions between interest groups and how each tries to cling or climb to power is basically what historical materialism tells us.
It's still buggy and wonky as hell but unless they do a 180 on the core mechanics and make them more gamey it's gonna turn out amazing when they polish it up.
Idk it's already kinda gamey. You can just hit the reform government button and kick people out of power. I've been ignoring the loss to legitimacy with no problem, they don't actually seem to give a shit until you start passing laws they don't like
They could probably rebalance that but it is kinda realistic too. Laws are the thing that can significantly change one interest group's grasp over power, it makes sense they panic when you effectively try to oust them out of power with a different tax law or something.
You're right that illegitimate governments have too little penalties though.
For the same reason nobles in Dwarf Fortress were hated by players, because they are useless, demanding and abusive to actually useful dwarves.
The whole "justice system" usually gets this treatment from player too, since the traditional punishments in Dwarven society are flavorful and cool but extremely harmful if you actually carry them out and the assignment of blame for broken laws is fairly arbitrary. It's far more useful to the player to simply accept that minor crimes happen and just maximize happiness so that they don't happen too often than to try to find and punish law breaking dwarves.
I think this rings especially true because a lot of gamers and redditors in real life honestly connect more with the "spirit of the nation" than with the working class. Not to generalize the entire hobby, bu I think a lot of gamers are at least well-off enough to be distracted away from the real life contradictions of capitalism so that they don't have to think about labour rights or economic systems. This leaves them to fantasize about how they would improve society if they were, god-like, in the shoes of the "spirit of the nation". Things like "oh, if I could control the United States, I would prosecute Trump, and raise taxes on the rich, or build more houses in such-and-such place." People like this do not have the class analysis required to understand why these things would not work so easily in real life (the rich would just flee the country with their profits, more houses does not actually give unhoused people homes, etc.). And this is the hypothetical milquetoast liberal gamer, to say nothing of the chud gamer.
Thus, when they are confronted with some of these roadblocks in a video game for the first time, they do not understand it at all. Video games are usually about enacting any fantastical policy you want, with the only pushback usually being simple economics or math, like their money number or stability number hadn't gotten high enough yet. Their brains are broken.
You hit the nail on the head, and I completely missed this nuance. "The spirit of the nation" is the most enlightened of centrists, you are beyond politics altogether, they do not affect you at all and all you care about is, at the end of the day, maximizing some numbers. The country could be anarcho-monarchist for all you care. But it just so happens that one of those two number (the other being state revenue, through taxes, tributes, war reparations, foreign aid and what have you) is material conditions. You're trying to increase material conditions (and literacy) for as many people in your country as you can. This makes you a communist from first principles. You don't want to be a leftist, you just want to increase material conditions for the many, not the few.
Reminds me of Timberborn, a city builder with no objective beyond maximizing your population's happiness. Beavers don't have a capitalist economy, they have rational central planning and share the same working hours across the board - and you make them happier by first securing survival and then increasing the availability of luxuries and free time.
Yeah, I should have probably made it clear that "the spirit of the nation" can refer to other paradox games or simulation games, not just Vicky 3. EU4 (in)famously has its mana/monarch point system, which is much more abstracted compared to Vicky 3's pretty functional economics. I'm glad to see that in Vicky 3 people's usual strategies or gameplay styles don't work because of more realistic economics, which is leading to posts like OP where the gamers are realizing class consciousness.
I heard a really great point about this the other day. That the truly rich have most of their wealth because they own all of our shit. They can run off with a sack of cash and maybe it won't be worth going after them in some sanctuary country.
But they're not taking fucking Yankee Stadium with them. They're not taking our apartments with them.
Absolutely, which is why nationalization (actually seizing the means) is much more in depth of a discussion than just saying "tax the rich" and not elaborating.
You could say Vic 3 is confronting players with the material basis of ideology. Turning Hegel on its head.
i now want to get this game