[CW: Discussion of Sex Work, SWERFism, Abuse, Misogyny]
I'm unsure if you folks will find this too heavy to handle, but I hope not. I have feminist views that may be interpreted as being highly exclusionary to sex workers, and I feel they are problematic, but I'm having a hard time changing them. I think my views are leaving me to tune out positive outlooks from sex workers because I cannot trust what they are saying.
I believe that sex work is inherently misogynistic and exploitative. I do support sex workers in their struggles, but I feel very uncomfortable when a sex worker denies that they are being exploited, objectified, dehumanized, etc. I feel like this is a denial tactic used to make them feel better in the scheme of capitalism because they are having a difficult time coping with the pain that capitalism has brought upon them, as it does with most people.
However, I will concede that I feel as if I'm arguing from incredulity here because I simply find it hard to genuinely believe differently than my position, but disbelief in the credibility of other viewpoints quite obviously is not a solid basis for a good argument.
I understand that sex work can be lucrative, but I think that doing it sells so much dignity that it's a really absurd tradeoff regardless of how much money you make from it. I also think, in the context of capitalism, things like escorting should be legal because I'm fearful that if an escort goes through abuse during her services, she will not be able to report it without getting in legal trouble herself. However, my ideal viewpoint is that communism would make sex work redundant and that's because my issue with it is the "work" part and not the "sex" part.
I think that sex positivity, free love, and sexual liberation are good, but consent is a huge part of it. I don't see sex work as anything "consensual." I see it as women being victims of capitalism and misogyny getting coerced into thinking that the best way to make sure that they have their needs met is by being seen as a sex object for men.
I do support sex workers in their struggles, but I feel very uncomfortable when a sex worker denies that they are being exploited, objectified, dehumanized, etc. I feel like this is a denial tactic used to make them feel better in the scheme of capitalism because they are having a difficult time coping with the pain that capitalism has brought upon them, as it does with most people.
This is the core problem. Doesn't have anything to do with sex work. Women are telling you about their lives. You're deciding that they're mentally ill and lying.
But on the other hand workers can have false consciousness. The American working class in general is far from revolutionary, and the communist line contradicts the personal beliefs of most American workers. You shouldn't disregard what sex workers are saying, but you shouldn't be tailist either. As for what the communist line on sex work should be... I plead the first.
Yeah, that is the problem. However, this is a viewpoint I specifically reserved for sex work and not other forms of labor. I will concede that this is a flawed mindset, though. I, unfortunately, have fallen into the trap of thinking that there is one universal outlook on how sex workers view their job, and it, like what @Quimps@hexbear.net was getting at was at, is extremely infantilizing to think that way. It's also just highly unnuanced.
I've been processing this all day, and I realized that in the system of capitalism, we're all victims of some form of exploitation, and no matter what way that exploitation manifests, there will be harm and problems with the form of labor. Looking down on sex workers or distrusting that they know what's best for them wasn't right of me. Sex isn't a bad thing, and if handled appropriately can be a very enjoyable and pleasant thing, as many people know.
Unfortunately, if handled inappropriately, it can be the exact opposite. With that in mind, I'm best supporting them in all they do and wishing for them to have the best outcomes as sex workers no matter what. You are undoubtedly right that they need to be listened to, and understood, and what they say should, oftentimes, be taken at face value.
If I wanted to place myself in a similar perspective with my own career desires, I dream of doing music in some professional capacity myself, but a lot of people tell me that it's a job that isn't very pleasant and that they doubt professional musicians, barring some exceptions, can enjoy their work. It's a viewpoint that I've always taken offense to because it always came from people who had zero interest in making music and were undermining my interest in it, so that makes me ask: why would I do the same to anyone of any career path? Especially, if it's something that deals with something that isn't inherently bad, which sex definitely isn't, and I'll be the first to say it.
This was all a learning experience, and all feedback is appreciated. Period.
However, this is a viewpoint I specifically reserved for sex work and not other forms of labor. I will concede that this is a flawed mindset, though.
If you view women as being a class within the framework of patriarchy, I don't think it would be a contradiction... Prostitution is at the confluence of labor exploitation by the bourgeoisie and sexual exploitation by the male class, no?
But if prostitution is objectionable, let's be Marxist about it. What would need to happen for its abolition? Laws just push it underground, so we need a change in social relations. Presumably, the abolition of private ownership, class, any meaningful sex/gender distinction would finally lead to the disappearance of the sex trade. But since we're currently just fighting for labor rights under capitalism - where the abolition of prostitution is impossible - you absolutely should take sex workers' opinions seriously when it comes to how we can fight for better working conditions/quality of life.
edit cause now I can't reply but maybe you're interested idk:
Concepts like dignity aren't really useful for this. It's subjective. Many Marxists will disagree about there being no dignity in sex work, but Marxists shouldn't disagree with an analysis on class relations. You should be able to have a productive conversation if you start from there.
Sex work is very broad. So you think escorts should be legal because it'll be safer for the worker, but what about onlyfans, amateur pornography, corporate pornography, brothels, etc.? If your answer is safety is the most important, and abolition can wait until communism, I don't really see how your opinion is a problem. But of course, you do seem to be disregarding sex workers' opinions that are contrary to yours, so maybe you're close-minded about how to make sex work safer in the meantime.
I understand that sex work can be lucrative, but I think that doing it sells so much dignity that it's a really absurd tradeoff regardless of how much money you make from it. I also think, in the context of capitalism, things like escorting should be legal because I'm fearful that if an escort goes through abuse during her services, she will not be able to report it without getting in legal trouble herself. However, my ideal viewpoint is that communism would make sex work redundant and that's because my issue with it is the "work" part and not the "sex" part.
That is essentially what I meant by this portion of my post.
(I’m mainly thinking about posting one’s self online, since that’s the only sex work I’ve interacted with. But these can probably apply to prostitution too, maybe to a lesser extent.)
One thing to consider that that some people like doing it. I know I’d love to post stuff if I was a cute femboy. They can both express themselves and receive admiration for it. And if they can also make money from it, cool. There’s a blurry line between sex work and sexual liberation when the sex worker enjoys what they do. But by strict definitions, it’s both.
doing it sells so much dignity
For many maybe, but for others that’s not a problem. The idea of sexual privacy and/or selectiveness being part of one’s “dignity” is entirely cultural. For anyone who doesn’t tie such things to their dignity, sex work could just be a job like any other.
I believe that sex work is inherently misogynistic
While sex workers are probably a vast majority female, and they likely feel negative effects (abuse, exploitation, sex trafficking, etc, when they’re present) to a greater extent, all of your reasoning can easily apply to male sex workers too. There’s nothing inherently misogynistic about sex work, but misogynistic society can make everything misogynistic.
I've been trying to put my thoughts to words and I think you phrase it pretty well.
In a sense, it's not all that different from non-sex work doing something you enjoy and find passion in. At least under the lens of capitalism, what I see as the main problem is needing to use that to live, whether it's sex or not. Of course the stakes are different and more intimate, but exploitation is fundamental to either situation.
It's hard to expand to a more general view as certainly not every sex worker is doing it solely because they want to, and I think the individual's privilege plays a big role. So again, at the heart of it is the capitalist definition of "work", and not necessarily the sexual component, in my mind. I may be way off base, though.
I have no connection to sex work other than human empathy, so my thoughts are mostly academic. I am always reconsidering my views on everything, so anyone please poke holes in my reasoning!
Thanks for responding, and I greatly appreciate your insight.
To be honest, you writing this made me personally reflect on this matter myself. If I weren't so dysphoric about my body, I could probably feel comfortable with some erotic posting myself, and that's something I thought I'd never say but it's likely because unfortunately, I think so damn much in the context of myself being dysphoric.
You're right that dignity about sexual privacy is very cultural. As far as I know as someone living in the US, we're, in a sense, taught to be rather prudish. Some people don't view matters this way, and that's a highly important perspective.
Male sex workers are also affected too, and that is a great point. I think gay escorts and porn stars, for instance, could speak for this perspective themselves.
There’s nothing inherently misogynistic about sex work, but misogynistic society can make everything misogynistic.
This is an incredible way to phrase your perspective. Ultimately, I think I shouldn't close myself off to what sex workers have to say. Their feelings are not my business ultimately, and me being aware of problems with exploitation in sex work does not have to be mutually exclusive with me supporting, respecting, and uplifting sex workers who view their job positively.
Thank you for that.
CW: Sex work, sexual violence
spoiler
I think we should believe people when they speak of their situation. I think it's infantalizing to sex workers to tell them that they're victims inherently and they just don't know better when they talk of their own experiences. Sex work is exploitative in the way that all work is exploitative, and they are therefore in a technical sense engaging in sex under duress, but just as the best way to approach a worker to talk about their exploitation and unionization efforts is not to immediately compare them to galley slaves and make a 1:1 comparison between chattel slavery and your shitty job, it is not actually helpful to discussing the actual problems inherent in sex work to frame it this way unless we are actually discussing those who have been trafficked or who are in a particularly exploitative situation, and in that case the immediate thing to do is treat this as a distinct criminal case rather than as a discussion of the dignity of sex work. I realize that my perspective as a cishet white man is inherently limited, but the only people I know who have engaged in prostitution (I don't know any former sex workers who did not engage in prostitution, and therefore cannot discuss the experiences of cam girls, porn actors, phone sex operators, strippers or any other kind of sex workers. Also these women were all white and uncoerced by anything except economic circumstance into taking the job. Which also limits their experience of course, but it is still superior to mine) have done so as a part time job they have either found pretty fulfilling or at least no worse than any other student job. I myself would feel gross "buying" the consent of someone, due to the fact that I don't want there to be an open question of whether I am engaging in sexual exploitation of any kind when I engage in sex, and I find the question of whether you can truly consent to sex under economic duress a valid question. But I trust women when they speak of their experiences.
Edit: I am now observing that we are at the moment 3 He/Hims disagreeing with someone on their argument about misogyny. Which is one of those "Bad looks".
I am now observing that we are now 3 He/Hims telling disagreeing with someone on their argument about misogyny. Which is one of those "Bad looks".
I overwhelmingly agree with the guys in this thread. SWERF shit is also full of misogyny, whether it's the open misogyny of men criticizing sex workers or the internalized misogyny of radfems patronizing them.
It's just that it's really hard to speak out against it for me when i know that misogynists, particularly from instances with an open anti sex work consensus, might object to my take and start moralizing me like they did when i commented on the subject with an older account of mine. I seriously don't feel safe pitching in on the issue when a certain type of leftist, usually men who will use a token anti sex work woman they supposedly know as a shield, might be nearby. I deleted the reply i originally typed out because of this because i just don't have the nerve to start debating that kind of person rn.
