In my opinion this type of killer is so rare I think it's not that difficult to consider indefinite incarceration. I suppose of course the quality of the prison drastically changes that experience.
Ceasing executions, however, seems an obvious low bar for any "civil" society.
Unapologetic serial killer just keeps killing. They won’t stop. What do you do? You literally cannot reform them, they just ignore you. You have no answer for this because you refuse to step up and be brave enough to pull the trigger to save the lives of innocents
You won’t explain because you can’t because the obvious contradiction is too great for you to overcome with your idealist principle
Yeah I’m gonna be hostile to people who are pro-serial killer freedom and refuse to do what’s needed to save lives, it’s social murder to allow them to run amok and you won’t jail them or kill them
The big thing is abolition of prison, not abolition of systems to deal with crime. You can have a way to isolate and deal with criminals that allows for rehabilitation and reintegration. One that's aware of the ability for people to change. In this instance, there is no visible change or if the criminal has shown no desire or drive to rehabilitate themselves, then they'll remain in the system.
The idea is to abolish prison as a system of punishment and replace it with a system of rehabilitation, education, and treatment. One where someone needing to spend an extended period of time in there isn't a punishment, but a sign that they genuinely need some form of help.
Russia and Cuba have both experimented with this concept at different levels.
Ok so an unrepentant killer is still in indefinite incarceration and you have changed the name of the thing and believe you have changed the thing itself. Why play these shell games?
No, the difference is that instead of the killer being sentenced to serve a term, they have the ability to improve themselves and deal with whatever it was that made them murder people without just being allowed to roam unchecked until their social problem is delt with.
I will also point out that these types of killers tend to have issues that arise from conditions created by capitalism (in this guy's case, he was a criminal who killed anyone who threatened to rat). Those holdouts need their traumas and driving conditions found and dealt with, especially if they're a literal life or death threat to the people around them.
The situation here is that the killer remains unrepentant and still desires to kill or shows no remorse for their actions. This alone means that they are likely to remain a threat too others if they are allowed to roam freely (by their own admission in this case). Which necessitates indefinitely detention in a facility that is humane and will continue working with the individual to find their specific issue and do what they can to help them back into general society.
Basically replacing all prisons with mental health centers, schools, and communal or cooperative workplaces. Environments where people can more easily reform themselves and not feel like they're under a punitive timeline, but have a goal of growth through education, remunerated labor, and therapies.
This concept is so far removed from the current carceral system in most developed countries now that the only way to get to it is through total abolition of prisons though. There is nothing of value to be salvaged from the American prison system except the conversion of the land these prisons sit on into parks, memorial, or farmland. I don't even think a new system should be built on the footprint of the old given that most prisons are so incredibly isolated from anywhere.
you said reform in your first comment. I think a lot of leftists are pretty flimsy on abolition unfortunately.
but yeah from an abolitionist perspective, simply reducing the scope of the class of unpeople that we lock up forever and ever without abolishing the state's ability to lock people up forever and ever allows for carceral logic to reassert itself with little resistance.
In some systems the max sentence is like 25 years which basically means "25 years, but if we review your case before release and determine you're still a threat to society, you are gonna stay in".
I'm not sure that this is true. It's definitely the case right now, but is that just another affect of capitalism? The practice of medicine is heavily affected by being done under any ideology, so we'd need to review this idea once we're a generation or two out from the revolution. In the short term though, some people just will not ever comply with society, and you can't just let them do what they want.
It's not just a lack of empathy, lots of people due to environment, neurodivergence, or just luck of the draw, have little or no empathy. They don't usually become serial killers. You have be very wrong internally to do something like that.
In my opinion this type of killer is so rare I think it's not that difficult to consider indefinite incarceration. I suppose of course the quality of the prison drastically changes that experience.
Ceasing executions, however, seems an obvious low bar for any "civil" society.
pretty difficult for me to mesh prison abolition with 'we'll keep the occassional murderer caged indefinitely' idk
Maybe that’s an indication that prison abolition is utopian idealism and not something that’s actually viable.
Funny when you run into the contradiction of serial killers with prison abolition, you decide to err on the side of serial killers running rampant
thank you for admitting youve not read any literature on the topic :thumb-cop:
ill go ahead and wait till you're willing to confront ideas on a deeper basis than your own preconceived notions
Dodging the obvious contradiction of what you are gonna do with the serial killers
ive got shit to do im not explaining this from first principals to someone whose already hostild
Unapologetic serial killer just keeps killing. They won’t stop. What do you do? You literally cannot reform them, they just ignore you. You have no answer for this because you refuse to step up and be brave enough to pull the trigger to save the lives of innocents
You won’t explain because you can’t because the obvious contradiction is too great for you to overcome with your idealist principle
Yeah I’m gonna be hostile to people who are pro-serial killer freedom and refuse to do what’s needed to save lives, it’s social murder to allow them to run amok and you won’t jail them or kill them
The big thing is abolition of prison, not abolition of systems to deal with crime. You can have a way to isolate and deal with criminals that allows for rehabilitation and reintegration. One that's aware of the ability for people to change. In this instance, there is no visible change or if the criminal has shown no desire or drive to rehabilitate themselves, then they'll remain in the system.
The idea is to abolish prison as a system of punishment and replace it with a system of rehabilitation, education, and treatment. One where someone needing to spend an extended period of time in there isn't a punishment, but a sign that they genuinely need some form of help.
Russia and Cuba have both experimented with this concept at different levels.
Ok so an unrepentant killer is still in indefinite incarceration and you have changed the name of the thing and believe you have changed the thing itself. Why play these shell games?
No, the difference is that instead of the killer being sentenced to serve a term, they have the ability to improve themselves and deal with whatever it was that made them murder people without just being allowed to roam unchecked until their social problem is delt with.
I will also point out that these types of killers tend to have issues that arise from conditions created by capitalism (in this guy's case, he was a criminal who killed anyone who threatened to rat). Those holdouts need their traumas and driving conditions found and dealt with, especially if they're a literal life or death threat to the people around them.
The situation here is that the killer remains unrepentant and still desires to kill or shows no remorse for their actions. This alone means that they are likely to remain a threat too others if they are allowed to roam freely (by their own admission in this case). Which necessitates indefinitely detention in a facility that is humane and will continue working with the individual to find their specific issue and do what they can to help them back into general society.
Basically replacing all prisons with mental health centers, schools, and communal or cooperative workplaces. Environments where people can more easily reform themselves and not feel like they're under a punitive timeline, but have a goal of growth through education, remunerated labor, and therapies.
This concept is so far removed from the current carceral system in most developed countries now that the only way to get to it is through total abolition of prisons though. There is nothing of value to be salvaged from the American prison system except the conversion of the land these prisons sit on into parks, memorial, or farmland. I don't even think a new system should be built on the footprint of the old given that most prisons are so incredibly isolated from anywhere.
So would you bet this guy is going to kill someone now? Even at his age and 40 years of prison?
you said reform in your first comment. I think a lot of leftists are pretty flimsy on abolition unfortunately.
but yeah from an abolitionist perspective, simply reducing the scope of the class of unpeople that we lock up forever and ever without abolishing the state's ability to lock people up forever and ever allows for carceral logic to reassert itself with little resistance.
bit idea: get locked up by a revolutionary regime for advocating abolition & be sending letters from jail about how there shouldn't be jail
Many don't want to hear it but there are human beings with broken brains who WILL harm and kill others if given the chance and cannot be rehabilitated
In some systems the max sentence is like 25 years which basically means "25 years, but if we review your case before release and determine you're still a threat to society, you are gonna stay in".
I'm not sure that this is true. It's definitely the case right now, but is that just another affect of capitalism? The practice of medicine is heavily affected by being done under any ideology, so we'd need to review this idea once we're a generation or two out from the revolution. In the short term though, some people just will not ever comply with society, and you can't just let them do what they want.
yeah they're called americans
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Yeah but I think murders of passion and serial killings are two different moral questions that require different answers
Yep gulag vs. wall
aren't psychopathic serial killers biologically incapable of empathy? like you'd need to invent some kind of chip to put in their brain to reform them
It's not just a lack of empathy, lots of people due to environment, neurodivergence, or just luck of the draw, have little or no empathy. They don't usually become serial killers. You have be very wrong internally to do something like that.