Doesn't calling someone ontologically evil let them off the hook for their choices. They aren't evil people they are people with the full capacity for goodness and redemption who everyday wake up and choose to continue to do evil things.
If they were evil ontologically then it wouldn't be their fault
No idea. It’s based on a meme. I thought it meant that they’re inherently evil and cannot be reasoned with or persuaded, so any actions taken against them is justified.
I know I recognise the meme it's been vaguely bugging me for a while. It's essentially the same retributive logic the system uses to justify throwing people into cells and throwing away the key
Organisations like hope not hate do regularly achieve success at deradicalisation of neo-nazis though.
The idea that once someone started down the path of being a nazi they can never go back is what neo-nazi groups deliberately try and get their people to believe so they remain nazis and ignore any doubts.
Self defence from bigots is an unambiguous good but this is not a way of thinking that allows for protecting potential victims as well as we could if we took a more considered approach
While trans people are being genocided there is literally no point in being like "oh noooo we shouldn't fight and kill the people genociding them, we should rehabilitate them!"
Trans people are facing a genocide. If they need to dehumanise their enemies in order to radicalise people into truly fighting then that is exactly what they should do and we should not attempt to undermine that by calling to humanise their opponent.
I strongly feel we passed the point of rehabilitation as a potential method a long ass time ago, unless Biden wants to round up every sympathiser into camps and start processing them for re-education there is not going to be a rehabilitative route out of this situation.
You just ignored my entire fucking point. Do you think hope not hate is going to magically stop trans people from being genocided? How are hope not hate going to change the minds of millions of people that are anti-trans? What is this shit going to do for the trans people in states where forced detransition is now becoming a legal reality?
My blood is boiling right now. You're basically putting nazi lives above the lives of trans people, that's how it comes across to a trans person.
The plan you proposed was fight and kill all the transphobes. As the transphobes have the full backing of the state and therefore have leftists massively outgunned I do not think that this plan would work. Therefore I think we should consider taking an alternate approach that would be more effective given the resources and capabilities we actually have
It doesn't fucking matter whether trans people do or do not have the power, they SHOULD violently fight back with everything they have, losing battle or not, in the face of genocide.
Your solution doesn't fucking solve anything either, because as I fucking pointed out there is no way you're getting the millions of nazis into camps where you can put them through this rehab. A few nazis here and there isn't going to fucking cut it.
Arm trans people and empower them with the ability to defend themselves, physically and mentally. Win or lose.
Listen to yourself for fuck's sake. If this were 1930s Germany you'd be saying "noooo don't arm jews and prepare to fight back, they can't win anyway, we must use the resources we have to rehabilitate the nazis because they're only human". Fuck. That. Arm them all and and give them the mindset they need to make it as difficult as possible to carry out anything against them.
violence is a means to an end if it does not achieve that end it is not a good idea. There were small Jewish uprisings in 1930's Germany and those uprisings accomplished nothing. Violence only helps if you have the capabilty to actually win that fight. To paraphrase your point a nazi here or there isn't going to cut it
A far better plan would be to help provide a means for trans people in those states to get somewhere safer or otherwise refocusing resources and energy to one of the many approaches with an actual chance of helping trans people
If you say this shit to trans people you will completely turn them away from communism and towards something else. I'm done here. Too fucking disgusted to continue tbh.
I'm generally skeptical of deradicalization organizations' claims. I'm not aware of any that do longer-term followups to see whether an intervention actually worked. And the most famous example in the US is just one guy and we know many of his "converts" stayed white supremacists.
With that said, do you know whether there is good info on that particular org's success?
Good for them. But there's still nazis around so they've failed. Turns out we need a quicker route and that is nazis should fear for their lives to express their views anywhere.
again that would be a good plan if leftists controlled the state or at least an underground army.
things like guerilla warfare for example rely on the guerilla being able to melt back into their community after an attack and thus a high degree of support from their local community. Trans people don't have that so it's not a viable plan
Not the world we live to decide not to imprison but who to free and who to lock up. I'm against the death penalty but any revolution that's gonna be stable at this point is going to be ensured with an absolute bloodletting. I hope things won't be so drastic for our children but that requires a pretty brutal success or that same violence will be visited upon your children.
I’m sure some of the Wehrmacht soldiers were just ignorant too. Hopefully they figured that out and defected before a soviet put a bullet between their eyes.
Until they switch sides, though, they’re just another nazi.
I’m not going to waste time educating anyone who wants to murder me. I’m going to make sure they can’t commit murder.
I don't think that's an excuse in the case of some of the bigotted behavior as I don't think an average person can be ignorant enough to not feel visceral empathy at the sight of suffering.
Even a racist would feel something at the sight of someone being beaten by police begging for their mom they choose to ignore the fact they know better in situations like that
Exactly. Going out of your way to be bigoted means you have consciously chosen the side of oppression. There’s a huge difference between being acting on hatred and having unexamined prejudice.
Doesn't calling someone ontologically evil let them off the hook for their choices. They aren't evil people they are people with the full capacity for goodness and redemption who everyday wake up and choose to continue to do evil things.
If they were evil ontologically then it wouldn't be their fault
No idea. It’s based on a meme. I thought it meant that they’re inherently evil and cannot be reasoned with or persuaded, so any actions taken against them is justified.
Example: the only good nazi is a dead nazi.
I know I recognise the meme it's been vaguely bugging me for a while. It's essentially the same retributive logic the system uses to justify throwing people into cells and throwing away the key
Okay but bigots and nazis aren’t people though? They traded their humanity in for fash brainworms.
Organisations like hope not hate do regularly achieve success at deradicalisation of neo-nazis though.
The idea that once someone started down the path of being a nazi they can never go back is what neo-nazi groups deliberately try and get their people to believe so they remain nazis and ignore any doubts.
Self defence from bigots is an unambiguous good but this is not a way of thinking that allows for protecting potential victims as well as we could if we took a more considered approach
The issue here is one of resources though.
While trans people are being genocided there is literally no point in being like "oh noooo we shouldn't fight and kill the people genociding them, we should rehabilitate them!"
Trans people are facing a genocide. If they need to dehumanise their enemies in order to radicalise people into truly fighting then that is exactly what they should do and we should not attempt to undermine that by calling to humanise their opponent.
I strongly feel we passed the point of rehabilitation as a potential method a long ass time ago, unless Biden wants to round up every sympathiser into camps and start processing them for re-education there is not going to be a rehabilitative route out of this situation.
I think the work of hope not hate actually proves that deradicalisation is an effective means of fighting this shit
The resources of the state support them not us. They have the guns and the cops. We therefore need to get creative
You just ignored my entire fucking point. Do you think hope not hate is going to magically stop trans people from being genocided? How are hope not hate going to change the minds of millions of people that are anti-trans? What is this shit going to do for the trans people in states where forced detransition is now becoming a legal reality?
My blood is boiling right now. You're basically putting nazi lives above the lives of trans people, that's how it comes across to a trans person.
The plan you proposed was fight and kill all the transphobes. As the transphobes have the full backing of the state and therefore have leftists massively outgunned I do not think that this plan would work. Therefore I think we should consider taking an alternate approach that would be more effective given the resources and capabilities we actually have
:LIB:
It doesn't fucking matter whether trans people do or do not have the power, they SHOULD violently fight back with everything they have, losing battle or not, in the face of genocide.
Your solution doesn't fucking solve anything either, because as I fucking pointed out there is no way you're getting the millions of nazis into camps where you can put them through this rehab. A few nazis here and there isn't going to fucking cut it.
Arm trans people and empower them with the ability to defend themselves, physically and mentally. Win or lose.
Listen to yourself for fuck's sake. If this were 1930s Germany you'd be saying "noooo don't arm jews and prepare to fight back, they can't win anyway, we must use the resources we have to rehabilitate the nazis because they're only human". Fuck. That. Arm them all and and give them the mindset they need to make it as difficult as possible to carry out anything against them.
:pavlichenko: "Not a man... fascists."
violence is a means to an end if it does not achieve that end it is not a good idea. There were small Jewish uprisings in 1930's Germany and those uprisings accomplished nothing. Violence only helps if you have the capabilty to actually win that fight. To paraphrase your point a nazi here or there isn't going to cut it
A far better plan would be to help provide a means for trans people in those states to get somewhere safer or otherwise refocusing resources and energy to one of the many approaches with an actual chance of helping trans people
If you say this shit to trans people you will completely turn them away from communism and towards something else. I'm done here. Too fucking disgusted to continue tbh.
The state isn't going to change its mind and neither are chuds.
so people shouldn't resist until they can win 100%?!
You are a fucking disgrace
How would stochastic violence help trans people. It's not that it won't win 100% it's that it won't do anything at all to help
I'm generally skeptical of deradicalization organizations' claims. I'm not aware of any that do longer-term followups to see whether an intervention actually worked. And the most famous example in the US is just one guy and we know many of his "converts" stayed white supremacists.
With that said, do you know whether there is good info on that particular org's success?
I know for a fact that they do follow ups and they have also worked with the people they deradicalised to help foil nazi terrorist plots
Good for them. But there's still nazis around so they've failed. Turns out we need a quicker route and that is nazis should fear for their lives to express their views anywhere.
again that would be a good plan if leftists controlled the state or at least an underground army.
things like guerilla warfare for example rely on the guerilla being able to melt back into their community after an attack and thus a high degree of support from their local community. Trans people don't have that so it's not a viable plan
Getting a little :fedposting: in here, but whatever, don't let me keep you from cooking.
called it
stop doing :fedposting: emote when people get rightfully angry you idiots
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Not the world we live to decide not to imprison but who to free and who to lock up. I'm against the death penalty but any revolution that's gonna be stable at this point is going to be ensured with an absolute bloodletting. I hope things won't be so drastic for our children but that requires a pretty brutal success or that same violence will be visited upon your children.
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They are like the goblins from Goblin Slayer.
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I’m sure some of the Wehrmacht soldiers were just ignorant too. Hopefully they figured that out and defected before a soviet put a bullet between their eyes.
Until they switch sides, though, they’re just another nazi.
I’m not going to waste time educating anyone who wants to murder me. I’m going to make sure they can’t commit murder.
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maybe. what type of bigot are you thinking of?
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weirdly specific kind of bigot but ok
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I don't think that's an excuse in the case of some of the bigotted behavior as I don't think an average person can be ignorant enough to not feel visceral empathy at the sight of suffering.
Even a racist would feel something at the sight of someone being beaten by police begging for their mom they choose to ignore the fact they know better in situations like that
Exactly. Going out of your way to be bigoted means you have consciously chosen the side of oppression. There’s a huge difference between being acting on hatred and having unexamined prejudice.
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