cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/4551711
The USA senate has 2 fasces. You cannot get more obvious than that
the founders were romaboos
funny how romaboo thought always leads to fascism
What do you mean, idolizing a violent expansionist slavery empire leads to trying the same stuff as them???
I imagine that's how the planters themselves thought of it but, they thought it was a virtue. They envisioned themselves as new repubican aristocrats in the Roman model. They would live in leisurely repose while being able to pursue art, academic writing, and politics just as the Roman latifundia did in the past.
I think it could be related to the liberal revolutionaries' tendency to clothe themselves in the Republican garb of the Classical age in order to legitimize their movement. The French had a similar movement in art and architecture during the age of their revolution and into the Napoleonic era as well.
The Roman Empire was an ideal society to model ourselves after
what about all the slavery and depravity tho?
That is a feature, not a bug
also, roman republic tearing itself apart repeatedly because the elites simply refused to give any concessions to the poor.
no, no lesson here.
(not that the republic was good...)
Like a dozen times in Roman history, some Consul is hailed as the greatest leader of all time because he breaks up the big slave owning plantations and redistributes the land to the poor (that is, the poor citizenry, not the slaves or immigrants). None of them could figure out how to stop the big plantations from inevitably buying up and outcompeting the smallholders, though.
A little dumb, a little "and here we see how the ideological seeds that underpin colonialism eventually mature into fascism"
Not really at all. TBH, the fasces as a symbol is downright contrary to American ideology. It's a symbol of collective strength through societal unity, but America is so embroiled in its cult of individualism that the idea of achieving a collective good through collective power is practically alien. (Of course then again, Italians never really lived up to the purported ideals of fascism either, so maybe it's not so out of place.)
American ideology is contradictory as hell haha
There's definitely the "I do what I want" aspect of it, but there's also tons of blind patriotism and willingness to sacrifice for the country (to say nothing of the half-mythical idea that the colonies were these fully independent sovereigns that chose to join together). I do think the former has been gaining serious ground since at least the 70s.
It’s a symbol of the estruscan kings and Roman magistrates right to order public floggings with sticks or beheadings with axes
My bad, I'd learned that it was a symbol of unity, like the people being stronger unified like the tied sticks.
okay but they stayed there even after fascism adopted the imagery. the empire is at the very least unconcerned with the implication of hanging ornamental golden fasces in the halls of power
So what's the logic here? That they kept it up there to fuck with your head, as a semi-secret sign that they're fascist? That's anti-materialist thinking, little different than anti-Masonists seeing the eye pyramid on a dollar bill and imagining a vast conspiracy from it.
Let's say that there was a proposal to take the fasces down- what would the case be? That Mussolini's use of the fasces imbues it with a transcendental evil that reaches back in time and taints it as a symbol before he even used it? From the perspective of the political class, the whole debate would likely be tiresome and not worth having.
If the US is or becomes fascist, it's going to have very little to do with some old ornaments in the House of Representatives, it's going to be because of material conditions.
Not really sure if the best response to fascists using a common and ancient symbol is to rip out our artistic and cultural heritage.
There are buildings with Swastikas and Fasces all over Europe and the US that considerably pre-date the Nazis.
It's not like removing statues of slavers and criminals (which is based), since these older buildings and artworks aren't and weren't glorifying the horrendous crimes they later came to be associated with.
the fasces in the chamber of the house of representatives are from 1857
I don't mean to come off as pedantic by saying this but, that's actually the House chamber.
To be fair, I think the US' use of fasces predates fascism by a couple hundred years. A bunch of the founders were ancient Rome statue avatar dorks.
