i know a good number of us have been listening to Hell on Earth and while it's been a decent primer for the sequence of events---the takes are quite spicy for historiography heads

here are the questions for the class:

What is Feudalism?

When did Feudalism End?

  • BowlingForDeez [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    It's a complicated question to answer. For a simple definition of "how if feudalism different that capitalism?" the answer comes down to monopoly on violence. A precondition for bourgeoisie capitalism is that the state will in theory protect property rights. A capitalist who owns a factory is not allowed to invade a rival factory and take over his stuff, the system wouldn't work that way. (Capitalists are allowed to use violence to oppress the peasants or workers, but not other capitalists). So capitalists compete with eachother through "peaceful" means, trying to get more profit than other capitalists. This lets them buy out rival factories or drive rivals out of business. But they can't send men with weapons.

    When we look at European feudalism in the middle ages, the feudal lords were constantly investing in profit making ventures. They bought mills, bridges, and all the land they could. The difference is they didn't invest in profit-saving technology, like bourgeoisie. That's because another feudal lord was likely to invade their land, burn their stuff. Or the peasants could take their stuff. So lords invested in military to help protect their investments. A castle would help defend that mill from raids. Paying for knights and their horses and armor made it so you could defend your land better, or invade a neighbor. If you invested money into a factory, you would get nothing back if your neighbor invaded and burned it down.

    Bourgeoisie need a powerful central state to mediate between classes, namely a central army and police to protect property. When the bourgeoisie didn't have to worry about spending money on defending their stolen land/resources, they were able to invest in labor saving technology. Feudal lords didn't invest in labor saving technology, they just bought more land. If the peasants got killed, you just had to get more peasants.

    That's why I generally reject the label "neofeudalism" to describe the growing monopolies and oligopoly corporations. Until Pepsi starts invading Coca Cola to take over their factories, it's not really feudalism.

    • motherofmonsters [she/her]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Err I believe the main reason feudal lords didn’t have factories was because they didn’t have the tools to make factories… for many it was literally cottage industry

      • BowlingForDeez [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        "Factories" was a shorthand for productive technology. And in fact some did actually have factories. Lords in the Crusader states were heavily invested in sugarcane production, which was processed in urban settings within a broad factory-like setting.

        But I could have said that "medieval European lords didn't invest in the labor reducing technology which was available at the time", primarily spinning looms, beer brewing, kilns, and other artisan used technology. Wool was a growing industry in northern Europe, particularly the Netherlands, England, and parts of Germany. However, processing wool to make full use of it required many labor inputs, which were generally done in cities. Lords from the countryside sold their wool and the nascent bourgeoisie processed it. Weavers, dyers, fullers, etc. all had their own technological needs and bourgeoisie owners of these shops formed Guilds to protect their needs. Guilds were not proletarian run, they were ways for artisans to protect their profits through price fixing against the noble elite who generally ran the government. Guild leaders, especially in the wool industry, tended to own the means of production and rented them out to the people who did the actual labor. These Guild leaders eventually succeeded in getting enough influence to getting their own government representation in the form of City Councils and communes.

        My main point in the larger post is that because ownership of property in the medieval world was not protected by the government police or army, medieval lords had to invest in protecting their property themselves. Bourgeoisie are able to invest in labor saving technology like factories because they don't have to bare the large cost of protecting their property, the state oughta do it for them. In fact bourgeoisie created Guilds and City Councils to protect their investments from the nobles encroaching. By the time of the modern period, the kingdoms of France and England successfully monopolized the use of violence within their countries. Bourgeoisie were then able to expand more freely without worry that their neighbor lord fuckwad would come in and steal or burn their property.

    • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Feudal lords invading and stealing other feudal lords' land is largely a feature of feudalism with European characteristics. In places with stronger feudal states like Imperial China, feudal lords are held in check by the feudal state. Nobody's invading and stealing shit from other people because the emperor had the largest army and a massive state bureaucracy to smoothly run the empire. Feudal lords stealing other feudal lords' land only became a thing with the decline of a particular dynasty, and even then, it's more of a case of warlordism with most warlords' aim of proclaiming their own imperial dynasty and pacifying rivals in order to rule the empire once again with a strong feudal state.

      • BowlingForDeez [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        And that's why I was only referring to European feudalism in my posts, which is also what most people think about when we say "feudalism." I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on Indian, Chinese, Iranian, etc. empires at the time. They operated very differently than Europe. The closest analogue is Japan, but that's a whole nother can of worms.

        And the reason I only mentioned European feudalism is because it was within medieval europe where bourgeoisie capitalism started to bloom. The foundations for capitalism were laid in the urban growth of medieval Europe. By the modern era (30 years war more or less), these European states had monopolized violence and enshrined private property (mostly, that's a long process). Then these European nation-states conquered the world, imposed their economic system, and eventually the whole world became divided into nation-states that operate under bourgeoisie capitalist economics. Even socialist states mostly operate under the concept of nation-states.