[SPOILER ARLERT: Don't read this if you haven't read the scans and don't want to be spoiled]
I think we can start by saying Isayama is a nationalist and I've heard people say the way he draws Titans is somewhat anti-semitic.
The lesson of this serie also seems a bit reactionary, the fact that "walls work" for example, even if they end up not working so much in the end.
The genocide versus self annihilation aspect is also to be discussed I guess. On the subreddit, you can see many people that are pro Eren, pro destruction of the entire world. I guess if one thing can be said about this series is that there are really no actual good guys, everyone is a killer and all factions suck; whether that's good depiction of politics or not, I couldn't say.
I really don't know what to think about the series tbh. On one hand, I really can't deny the plot is meticulously planned and pretty fucking amazingly written for the most part, and the portrayal of racism and discrimination is horrifyingly close to life. On the other hand though, the fanbase is a fash-infested shithole, and Isayama has said some really weird shit regarding Japanese imperialism. From what I got, the manga itself seems to condemn nationalism and fascism, albeit in a very morally gray manner. At first, it tricks you into supporting it with the really basic conflict of humanity vs monsters-- us vs them. After the basement though, once it becomes clear things aren't that simple, it shows you the disgusting consequences that line of thinking leads to-- literally the apocalypse. Ofc though, this flies right over the head of the people who read the series for wow cool titan, and now we got a majority of the fanbase being hardcore Eren stans and shitting up every discussion.
Though it does seem to go back and forth with the "Faascism Works!" to "Fascism is Bad!" enough to give one whiplash, I just think about the original titan (jewish) girl's deal with the devil and the confusion lifts.
I would argue that the message of the show isn't "walls work" seeing as the walls were ultimately part of a self-imposed prison. Also, the entire mission of the survey cops (the closest thing the series has to a group of "good guys") is to ultimately progress beyond the walls and escape their confines. Also, tbh, I don't see the anti-Semitic thing at all. I honestly think that's the least convincing argument for the series being reactionary. There's obviously some very heavy-handed holocaust imagery (the ghettoization of the Eldians living in Marley) but as others have already pointed out, this is obviously meant as a way to draw sympathy for the interned Eldian's and to paint Marley as a racist authoritarian state. I swear the guy who wrote that article claiming the Eldian internment zones and armbands were proof of antisemitism has some of the worst, most surface-level analysis capacity I've ever seen.
Putting Isayama's nationalism aside and observing the work through a completely objective lense, I would argue that the show does not project an absolutist moral message, but rather portrays all the conflict in the show as contradictions between various individual and group interests.
As for Eren and his newest "adventure," I think a lot of people sympathize with him because even though the choice he made was a horrible one, there was no good choice for him to make. His choice was between allowing Paradise and everyone he knows to be destroyed by the imperialist forces of Marley, or to save everyone he loves and destroy literally everything else. We all know what the correct choice is, of course, but deep down we question whether we could make it ourselves if put into his circumstances.
I don't know a lot about Isayama other than his imperialist apologia, but I've always assumed that like most people he is just a mostly apolitical person with some shitty opinions that have never really been challenged because they're pretty commonly held by those around him. None of this is an excuse, of course, but I don't see much evidence of these beliefs manifesting in his work. The closest thing to it that we've seen is that he apparently based Pixis off of an Imperial Japanese General, or something like that. Not a good look, but he only has very few significant contributions to the plot as a whole.
Idk, SnK is a weird series to analyze. People both over and under analyze it when trying to uncover it's overall messaging. I personally think that it doesn't really capitulate significantly to any one ideology, but is a somewhat interesting representation of the resulting conflicts from the contradictions of the interests of different groups. I also think there are connections to be made to imperialism as well.
TL;DR: Eren is a Jucheist
Who reads/watches this and thinks the message is Walls Work when the first chapter is our main boy staring up at those walls lamenting his own lack of freedom? The walls are a prison is a theme of the very first chapter.
What if you don't put Isayama's nationalism aside? Then what kind of picture do you come up with?
A big part of the story is how nationalism is bad though, the nationalists are never portrayed as good guys.
My question is what kind of analysis does one come up with when one takes the fact that Isayama holds rather strident nationalist opinions into an analysis of AoT. And one must also look at the subtext available as well. The series is rather long and appears to shift its ideological perspective several times over its course. But when one looks at the constants, at least one interesting thing pops up. Mikasa and Dot Praxis, named after two imposing prescences from Imperial Japan, seem to be two characters that are unambiguously good-fortresses almost, though Dot Praxis appears far less in the story.
A bit late in my response, but allow me to explain why I said that.
While it may be important to view a story with all subtext available, I don't believe it has a huge bearing in the case of SnK for a couple different reasons, first being that there does not seem to be any obvious ideological slant towards nationalism in the overall messaging of the show. Let's say you decide to weigh back in the author's support of nationalism into your analysis. What exactly does that change? The only new thing you come away with is the characters who are named after "imposing presences from imperial Japan." One of which is barely a character except for her desire to protect Eren and the other is an eccentric/perverted general who only just narrowly decided not to betray Erwin and the Survey Corps in favour of the monarchy.
The reason I don't think Isayama's support of figures from Imperial Japan is all that important to the overall messaging of the show is that as far as I can tell he's just an ill-informed person who holds a view that is unfortunately all too common in Japan, and probably doesn't have any coherent political ideology to go along with it. If there was obvious support for nationalism in the show, I may be inclined to think otherwise, but if there is any overall moral stance the show takes it's that nationalistic and imperialist tendencies are a hindrance to attempts at internationalism and lead to horrific bloodshed.
If you and I were to have a real point of contention, I think it would be whether or not subtext is always important. And I think it is. Always. Without subtext, as well as context, one must accept all sorts of disagreeable arguments at face value. Arguements such as :"Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything in history!", "I'm wearing this confederate flag cuz States Rights!" and of course: "Nah dude, she's really 5 thousand years old - she just looks ten!"
I would also say that popular entertainment has been weaponized since before the Illyad. I don't know about you, but I virtually have never paid a dime for manga or anime. And as they say, if it's free, then the product is you. Few would argue that American popular entertainment is thinly disguised propaganda and jingoism with Uncle Sam providing documented support and guidance from at least World War Two and the inception of television. Why give the Japanese govenrment/entertainment complex less credit for promoting its perceived interests, which would inherently be right wing, in it's most valuable cultural export . One can see at least two separate levels of subtext that Isayama is operating on and yet you refuse to give him credit for even having a coherent political ideology. The fact that you and I are on this particular message board means that we have something of a coherent political ideology between us. Would not Isayama, a considerably more accomplished gentleman than ourselves(I'm assuming), also have a reasonably well defined political outlook.?
And yes, if the only allusions to Imperial Japan or uncriticized fascist symbology were Mikasa and Dot Pixis, then I too would have to agree that that was a bit thin. Unfortunately, you also have commanders Erwin (smart like a fox-a Desert Fox perhaps- Isayama made sure to give the character the same birthday) and Hange (Who goes all anime-adorable giddy with the prospect of experimenting on Erin and the other titans), likely loose homages to Rommel and Mengele. (Levi is still giving me trouble. I'm almost convinced that Mengele is represented by both Hange and Levi with Hange being "the Good Doctor" and Levi the literal "Angel of Death" . ) Even more abstract, yet present enough to speculate upon, are the similarities of the Scouts, a small group of determined like minded individuals who impose their will upon the government and ultimately the whole population with the army proving to be along for the ride/a force for good, to another group of guys determined to make Germany great again. He is pretty heavy handed with his allegories comparing the Eldians with Jewish people, but slightly more cautious with his admiration for Nazis and their ideals. He basically tries to have it both ways, like a Republican reminding you that Republicans freed the slaves. But to be honest, my belief is that the entire layer of Nazi/Jewish subtext is to provide subterfuge for his real goal - you guessed it - Japanese nationalism with the Japanese as god's “Chosen People”.
And allow me to apologize for not adding any context to my claims of Japanese nationalism. First of all, it doesn't spring from a vacuum. 75 years after WWII the US military still occupies Japan. To my knowledge there is no discussion of ever handing it back. No one says the words “occupied Japan” these days, but it is still the fact on the ground and many Japanese are justifiably unhappy about it. To add insult to injury, the same fascists who dragged Japan into WWII and turned Asia into a giant crime scene were for the most part let out of jail after the war and put back in charge. They stay in charge through not upsetting their American overlords, your usual symbiotic relationship with big business and an overt and explicit alliance with organized crime. The Japanese people in general would be happier with the US military gone, but the US is already considering utilizing Japan as an armed and fighting buffer against China and the right wing nationalists see this as a ticket to a long dreamed of re-arming, something that your average Japanese citizen is not excited about either. Nevertheless, in this situation, nationalism of one sort or another is something that naturally finds a very receptive ear in Japan.
In AoT, the Eldians can be seen representing three japanese groups, the decadent brain washed pacifists, the self hating Marley dwellers and the Survey Core – the restorationists. The Eldians are heirs to a glorious legacy and the power to rule the world. Their past rule was one of prosperity for all. This can easily be seen as the Japanese “Co Prosperity Sphere” where a recently modernized Japan brutally sought to acquire colonial possessions in Asia under the rhetoric of a civilizing mission. Read up on it. Blood curdling stuff. The Japanese pacifists, represented by the decaying Eldian elite have not only locked the population inside of a “prison” with its isolationist policies, it has not taught the population its history (erased their memories) and endanger the entire population with their cowardice toward foreign threats. The Japanese who do the unthinkable in questioning Japans role in WWII can be seen personified in the Eldians residing in Marley (the Zeke faction) who are seen as violently self loathing and willing to commit genocide to atone for the perceived past crimes of the Eldians. There is also the possibility that they represent their asian “cousins” , the other asian countries that easily can be considered “existential threats” in the minds and rhetoric of a Japanese nationalist. The only true “heroes” are the scouts led by Erin, heir to the restorationists' struggle. It is this struggle that propels the plot and establishes the “heroic” and “non-heroic” characters and his goal is the restoration of Eldian supremacy. As the series winds to an end I am aware that the zealotry of the main character has alienated his core allies, but I have my doubts that the story will end with an unsympathetic portrayal of said protagonist. I'm sure the ending will be somewhat disturbing though.
I'll close by mentioning an important scene thats also frequently available as promo clips. Though Zeke and crew are the representatives of asians critical of Imperial Japan, Zeke himself is a hairy blond foreigner, a favorite bad guy type for a lot of asian action based entertainment. The scene where Levi, the smaller asian looking character neatly slices the shirtless hairy foreigner out of the Beast Titan before proceeding to violently chastise him reminds one of the at least three times Bruce Lee does the exact same thing to a giant blonde at a pivotal moment. Okay, Chuck Norris doesn't count. And it seems like nationalism fan service at its most obvious. My apologies for the verbosity. Quarantine and all. Lot of time on my hands.
I'm not sure that I would say that SnK portrays human nature accurately. His character's are more like tropes with giant expressive eyes. And I really do think there needs to be more discussion about the screaming/crying boy trope in anime. The older I get, the more insidious it becomes. I can listen to all manner of nonsense in a normal tone, but screamed nonsense, the way anime tends to deliver it's surface level observations, is instantly grating. It also implies that the worlds problems can all be summed up by a screaming teenaged/preteen boy. Good fan service, I suppose. But I doubt thats the most important message the authors are trying to communicate. And with Isayama's stated admiration of imperial Japan (Mikasa was an Imperial Japanese warship and Dot Praxis was modeled after an Imperial Japanese general ) and the Korean occupation, his themes of constant,gruesome struggle take on even darker undertones. Becausee of this, China has banned it and Korean death threats to Isayama were frequent.
At this point as an anime-only I'd describe the politics as being about a boy diving into facism before ultimately rejecting it.
Isn’t the creator of SNK like a hardcore Japanese ultranationalist?
Shits faschy as fuck with the added bonus of being pretty bad. Kinda interesting that this thing had to be nurtured and coddled from inception on account of the artwork being so bad. That means powerful and enlightened people saw that we all needed this manga/show and obliged.
Yeah, your right the bougie are pushing Attack on Titan to make us all fash
Wow, with the name calling already. A bit sensitive about your choice in mass marketed entertainment?
If it helps I still think your take on attack on titan is a shallow read, it feels like you started at "it's fash" and worked backwards. A lot of anime gets attacked as fash shit, and I just don't think it holds up. Culturally they can lean into imagery that in a different context would imply a right wing bent, but I think it doesn't really pan out most of the time.
Attack on Titan has a lot of that stuff, even from Chapter 1 it's pretty blunt about walls being a prison. They built the walls to keep out Titans, but the main character opens the story lamenting their existence. The walls are later revealed as a prison, but they aren't sold as a good thing at any point in the story. More than that, genocide is a focus of the story and that's certainly never sold as a good thing.
I would respectfully suggest that perhaps it is yourself that has taken AoT at face value. And I think as a baseline we should establish the perhaps uncomfortable fact that we are both here because we are to some degree aficianados of fantasies of violence. Not just that though, violent fantasies that also display technical proficiency as well as artistic underpinnings. That's expensive stuff. Not being producers of said product, we take whats available, right? That basically leaves what's in them, surface level as well as subtext, up to the producers. And that is where their personal and political motivations definitely start to matter. Koreans aren't making death threats because they don't get it. They do, which is exactly why they are upset. It is the fandom that clings to the surface level analysis because admitting that Isayama and producers of much of our favorite entertainment may have ulterior motives and ghastly worldviews isn't really fun. But hey, the producers of popular entertainment, as a class, are not your friends. Didn't think I would need to say that on a board for lefties.
I think you miss something calling it anti-semitic when the good guys are all clearly the victims of a nazi regime, right? The story really starts with Eren's dad in the ghetto, and those aren't exactly subtle about who the bad guys are (its the nazi soldiers that make people wear armbands). It runs into the same problem X Men does, where it accidentally justifies its racism but I think calling it anti semitic isnt the right way.
well why not, like the walls work as in they stop the titans but they create a really bad society, like isn't the whole scout division a proof of how it does not trully work of how humans refuse their cages, like erwin is ready to pile up bod of his soldiers for the small possibility of getting a single inch for humanity
Trying to figure out exactly what he means by individual parts of the story can be intentionally confusing and the stated goal of the work is intended to overwhelm on so many different fronts that it can be hard to hold a consistent view of what is the moral or intellectual message of the overall piece. Knowing a bit about Isayama though, clears up any ambiguity that might be present.
Does the politics come though? I feel like it goes to far up it's up ass with weird titan shit to make it really about politics.
As long as you keep in mind that its a story about giants that's really about germans and jews that's really about Japanese Imperial apoloogia - yeah, they come through. Isayama is supposedly on record saying his original inspiration was being lurched at by a drunken foreigner. So.............
So the cartoon making people who live in the decaying society of a former axis's power have incoherently used fishiest imagery to try to express their ennui and sell toys and the message is aesthetically strong but kinda confused and meaningless?
Its a bit deeper than that my friend. Anime literally rose phoenix like from the ashes of Imperial Japan with the first feature length anime -war propaganda, of course- making its debut around the same time as the firebombing of Tokyo. In the ensuing decades, Japan's practically unchanged and unrepentant fascist leadership have been defanged by American occupation a ban on offensive wars,and a commendably pacifist population. But culturally, anime has colonized hearts and minds better than Tojo's finest ever could. It started out as propaganda and has never stopped. A Japanese citizen who saw that first full length anime after the war ended claims to have been moved to tears by it's effectiveness. One of the things that make it so effective it's is use of eyes. They teach you in sales and advertising that nothing communicates as well as a human face. Now how many anime images leap to mind that are nothing but a face filling an entire screen. And even though anime is seriously cheap to produce (one of the selling points from a producer's standpoint) you will notice that the most attention is paid to animating pupils. Those giant headlight sized pupils that just instantly establish empathy. Even the seriously cheap anime will have some gorgeously rendered and oversized pupils. And Japan has used those adorable moe eyes to make everybody forget that the first bunch to take off in the Argo (Yamato) weren't volunteers. And it works, even in sites of former Japanese atrocities like China and Korea anime is huge. Just as long as idiots like isayama can refrain from being the pigs that, well, they are encouraged to be from on high. Wanna go down a messed up rabbithole? Google "moe military jdf". Anime is not only successfully used for military recruitment in Japan it is also used for advertising townships and locations as an anime set in a specific verifiable location can bring in tourists both foreign and domestic. Shit's for real bro. It works and is being used to promote fascism.
Looked for it myself. Not too hard though. Didn't find the quote but a few articles mention a previous job at an internet cafe where said incident was supposed to have occurred. Can't wait to actually learn Japanese. Am exited to not be limited to English language sources and would love to get a genuine Japanese-lefty perspective on the whole anime thing. Janae!
