China exports like a trillion dollars of value more than it imports, and it seems to actively maintain this stance - Does it? And if so, why? My reductive ape-brain says if more goods are leaving your country than coming in, then other countries are accumulating actual goods, and your country is accumulating pieces of paper (or digital bits). Seems like a losing strategy.

Why not just make all the goods that your country wants (especially if you're an enormous country that can scale economies and has access to strategic materials like China) and then you'd have more stuff?

And how do currency exchange markets fit in? I thought exporting and importing and fluctuating value of currencies meant that it should all sort of 'balance out' in the end. Because prices of currencies change the value of export/import and consequently you'd eventually have a country that exports and imports the same value of goods.

Maybe I fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of trade. Or maybe I've been playing too much Victoria 3.

  • CarmineCatboy [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    Employment. If you only make the goods that your economy wants you don't employ nearly as many people. In an environmnt of poverty and inequality then your economy doesn't demand a whole lot because people just don't have the money or the credit to buy stuff. That's why Korea, Germany, China are all export oriented powers. If you instead maintain a negative trade balance by importing the goods that your economy wants, you are essentially exporting your currency and your job placements, which is the US strategy. Being at the center of every supply chain in the world also makes you indispensible and resilient in terms of inflation.

    If you played Victoria 3 a lot you must have run into a late game profit crisis and unemployment issues from pop growth and women's liberation. Simply put, you own people's consumption doesn't rise nearly as quickly as you need it to. One short term solution is to try and export goods to developed markets, and to import cheap commodities as much as possible.

    • ZoomeristLeninist [they/them, she/her]M
      ·
      2 years ago

      love to micromanage vicky3 to the point of checking each building type's employment saturation and the volume of input/output commodities to maximize employment

        • ZoomeristLeninist [they/them, she/her]M
          ·
          2 years ago

          if i wanted stress-free fun id play bugsnax. i need to make every country i play a communist manufacturing powerhouse with an incredible standard of living

          • GorbinOutOverHere [comrade/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            I do that without all that effort all you gotta do is just build shit also it helps if you join the British or French market if you're a small country to get immigrants (but then you gotta get independence later)

            • ZoomeristLeninist [they/them, she/her]M
              ·
              2 years ago

              yeah that works for a lot of countries but i like playing the Great Qing, Russia, USA, etc. im in an Ottoman run rn and you really have to perfect ur construction strategy to get rid of the "sick man of europe" journal entry

          • CarmineCatboy [he/him]
            ·
            2 years ago

            this might sound dumb but i'm waiting to see if any of the cold war mods make it to vicky 3. i dunno why but having a revolution in the post war just seems more attractive to me i dunno why.

    • ElmLion [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      This makes the least sense to me - Why does an economy needs to produce more than it consumes? Why can't those goods go to its own people? Why does another country's magic money paper mean it's now okay for your country's poor to consume your own goods, when you could just give them your goods to start with? I get the idea of being an indispensible and resilient economy though.

      In Victoria 3 I never ran into that employment issue, I only ever needed more workforce, not less (though I still ran into late-game profit crises). If people were so poor they weren't buying luxury goods, I could just build more farms which gave them low-wage jobs and lowered the price of food, so exporting was never ever needed. I never saw an advantage to exporting goods except when they were byproducts I didn't need so much (ie automobiles, luxury items, etc.), I assume because forex wasn't implemented. The only other population issues were running into shortages of local strategic resources.

      • CarmineCatboy [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        I am no great theorist, but the simplest answer I have is that international trade is pivotal for technological development, for social change, for building up the means of production. And that since we don't live under communism all nations must pay their tithe into the global system of financial exploitation and wealth creation if they wish to have access to the rest of the world. Besides gaining access to certain resources - machine goods, capital goods, oil - you also want to foster a culture, effecting social change on a massive scale. You need all of society to work towards Communism, which is the sort of long term undertaking that is difficult to achieve long term. Especially when you start from so low development as post war China.

        This isn't the old story of how the Mao era did all the bad things and after Deng Liberalized® everything China became a superpower. The Mao era was China's industrial revolution, it pacified the country, created the State, and estabilished numerous key industries. The Deng era saw China embed itself in the international markets, reformed the State, and estabilished a mixed market economy. It is clear that one is not possible without the other. What you're essentially asking is why China didn't just press the communism button after the industrial revolution. Could they have? Was the technology already there? What about people's culture? Ultimately, development under socialism is a permanent struggle towards a far off goal. And if all you aim to do is to provide the surplus that a peasant economy requires then only a minority of those peasants will actually go to the factories.

        In practical terms: you have a country full of peasants who demand relatively little in their daily lives. The industrial revolution allows you to create greater and greater surpluses from certain fields, as well factories in urban areas. Now you can supply public works and people's demand. To a certain point you can produce goods and effectively distribute them. But you reach a point where you need to think long term. You need to foster school systems, technological transfers, you need acccess for foreign HR and basic resources. Not only you must offer up something to an international system of capitalist exchange - your cheap labour being the key asset - you have to consider that if you want to reduce inequality and increase local demand for the goods you create you need to get those peasants into factories. Which means that supplying the demands of foreign markets is an opportunity to accelerate the creation of the means of production, not a cost to you. The question is where you go from there.

        Several countries have come to the cusp of reaching 'high income status' and fallen down. Brazil and Russia are two, for different reasons. Brazil is a capitalist nation, as such it must either succeed in estabilishing itself at the top of the hierarchy of infrastructure, exploitation, and technological creation or it will see a crunch and collapse. Unlike Brazil, Russia has a better pool of educated people to pick from and a lot more resources for industrial development. It's current failure to achieve and maintain high income status comes from its decoupling from the West. Now China is in that position, and they've posited the Dual Circulation system. They outright wish to increase internal consumption while also serving as the world's workshop. They realized that they can't coast off American credit forever, but they also reached a certain level of technological and economic development where their internal market is the real deal. It's a stark contrast with capitalist Brazil, where we tried the exact reverse - import substitution and the development of the internal market first, with great success at first, but eventually crunches at the end.

        TL;DR its harder to implement autarky or communism than in Victoria 3, and it's not just because of a lack of resources long term either. People's behaviors need to change over generations. New ideas and technologies must be fostered. New sectors to the economy. What changes is the endgame between socialist and capitalist nations. Do you accumulate capital to raise living standards, or do you lower living standards to further accumulate capital? Also, play 1.2. The unemployment issues are so great that somewhere in 1900 or even earlier you'll end up turning your factories into sweatshops. I started as tiny Brazil with only a few million people and by the endgame I was #1 in GDP and still had 500k unemployed people, with more entering the market all the time. Solving unemployment in Asian countries is now pretty much impossible due to the changes to arable land. It's exhilarating.

  • FuckyWucky [none/use name]
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    China still has to import stuff like oil, chips etc which they need foreign exchange for. Also, having a ton of forex allows them to protect Yuan against external shocks (look what happened to so many other developing countries when fed raised interest rates) and keep it within the desired band.

    The export oriented economy is what helped bring in foreign capital and technology and recently China has been shifting focus to domestic consumption as well.

    • ElmLion [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      2 years ago

      So the imbalance means China is accumulating money and/or ownership of things globally?

  • notceps [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    China didn't have capital, specifically Deng invited foreign capital to increase the rate of industrialization and they are still in that process, like the amount of poor people in China has improved a ton but there's still people living in rural china without access to warm water or electricity.

    In addition, being the manufacturing base of the world means it's much harder to take action against china, western countries do like their treats and third world countries rich in resources will over time align with china because they have close relationship.

    Don't know if china still pursues that strategy but they had a somewhat fixed exchange rate between the Renminbi and USD, basically exchange rate can be in an 'acceptable band'.

    • Avengermate [none/use name]
      ·
      2 years ago

      This gives China a decisive advantage because it underprices their goods. Nobody can beat their prices. The "real" rate of USD to CNY should be around 4, but they keep it pumped up to around 7.

      As an American it's just weird seeing a government take actions that benefit itself.

      • notceps [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Eh, I wouldn't sign that, under pricing your goods is obviously going to help in maintaining the trade imbalance but it also comes with serious negatives, the biggest one is that they have almost no control over their own currency policy and the other one is that they need to have massive amounts of reserves, like there's a reason why a country like china that knows that is in conflict with the USA still is the biggest owner of US debt that is at risk of just getting eliminated.

      • hexaflexagonbear [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        What? Lol. You have to be insane to make the claim that America doesn't take actions to benefit itself.

        • SaniFlush [any, any]
          ·
          2 years ago

          I think Aven meant “take actions which benefit citizens besides the ruling class”

    • StalinForTime [comrade/them]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Just on the first point, it depends on what you mean by capital. It looks like two senses are being confounded in your comment.

      If you mean it in the sense of Neoclassical/mainstream economics, i.e. artificial goods used to create further goods (i.e. machinery and equipment), i.e. as a means of production, which seems to be what you mean, then China did have this before Deng. Every society does. China had greatly economically developed its means of production during the Maoist period, and industrialization had already progressed to a significant degree. See what Amartya Sen, of all people, said about the Maoist period:

      • Because of its radical commitment to the elimination of poverty and to improving living conditions - a commitment in which Maoist as well as Marxist ideas and ideals played an important part - China did achieve many things… [including] The elimination of widespread hunger, illiteracy, and ill health… [a] remarkable reduction in chronic undernourishment… a dramatic reduction of infant and child mortality and a remarkable expansion of longevity.

      • The accomplishments relating to education, health care, land reforms, and social change in the pre-reform [i.e. Maoist] period made significantly positive contributions to the achievements of the post-reform period. This is so in terms of their role not only in sustained high life expectancy and related achievements, but also in providing firm support for economic expansion based on market reforms.

      According to the Journal of Global Health

      • Life expectancy soared by around 30 years, infant mortality plummeted and smallpox, sexually transmitted diseases and many other infections were either eliminated or decreased massively in incidence... By the mid-1970s, China was already undergoing the epidemiologic transition, years ahead of other nations of similar economic status. This was due to population mobilization, mass campaigns and a focus on sanitation, hygiene, clean water and clean delivery," as well as "clinical care and continuing public health programs to the masses through community-funded medical schemes and the establishment of community-based health workers "

      According to Population Studies

      • China's growth in life expectancy at birth from 35–40 years in 1949 to 65.5 years in 1980 is among the most rapid sustained increases in documented global history... Physician and hospital supply grew dramatically under Mao due to a variety of factors (including increases in government financing, the introduction of social insurance for urban public employees, and the launch of China's Rural Cooperative Medical System in the mid-1950's). Rural Cooperative Medical Schemes (CMS) were vigorously promoted and became widespread in the late 1960's as part of the Cultural Revolution.

      Sen also emphasizes gains in education:

      • China's breakthrough in the field of elementary education had already taken place before the process of economic reform was initiated at the end of the seventies. Census data indicate, for instance, that literacy rates in 1982 for the 15-19 age group were already as high as 96 percent for males and 85 percent for females.

      Finally, see Maurice Meisner (Mao's China and After) to summarize:

      • *Yes despite all the failings and setbacks, it is an inescapable historical conclusion that the Maoist era was the time of China's modern industrial revolution. Starting with an industrial base smaller than that of Belgium's in the early 1950's... [China] emerged at the end of the Mao period as one of the six largest industrial producers in the world.* 
        
      • The Maoist economic record... compares favorably with comparable stages in the industrialization of Germany, Japan, and Russia - hitherto the most economically successful cases (among major countries) of late industrialization. In Germany the rate of economic growth for the period 1880-1914 was 33 percent per decade. In Japan from 1874-1929 the rate of increase per decade was 43 percent. The Soviet Union over the period 1928-1958 achieved a decadal increase of 54 percent. In China over the years 1952-1972 the decadal rate was 64 percent. This was hardly economic development at "a snail's pace," as foreign journalists persist in misinforming their readers.

      If you mean capital in the Marxist sense as a social relation of self-producing value underwritten by a class relationship, then it can be argued that this was largely eliminated from China between 1956-1978, before being reintroduced under Deng.

  • StalinForTime [comrade/them]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Countries obvously trade to acquire goods and services, but they also do so to gain currency, both to use for further trade and as part of reserve assets (in the central bank) which can used to intervene in currency markets to influence exchange rates. Countries, especially in highly developed, modern, technologically complex economies need to import huge amounts of raw materials and machinery which they can't produce themselves or at least not as cheaply as importing.

    If you have a trade surplus in your current account (all trades of goods and services, income flows (e.g. wages to labor, rent, interest and profits to capital) and transfer payments), then that means that the total monetary value of your exports (and inward flows - injections - of income and transfers) excedes the total monetary value of imports (and outward income and transfer flows).

    But the current account is just one part of the full account of all financial transactions, the Balance of Payments (BOP), i.e. the account of all flows of capital (monetary/financial or otherwise) between countries. There are also the capital account (flows of non-finacial assets, like when a family migrates and takes physical belonging with them or a firm or rich household moves furniture or machinery abroad) and the financial account (flows of financial assets). The financial account is more important than the capital account, being far larger in monetary terms and made all flows of financial assets (e.g. FDI, portfolio investment in equity and bonds etc., and so on). In theory, a balance of payments has to be balanced, so that, leaving aside the inevitable human errors in accounting, if there is a surplus in one part of the BOP, then there much be a surplus in the rest. The balance in the balance of payments (made up of (1) current account, (2) capital account and (3) financial account) is not what people are talking about when they speak of balancing trade deficits/surpluses, because, in theory, the BOP is always balanced.

    To realise why consider this: in order for country-states to be willing to engage in long-term trade, there needs to be an expectation of some kind of parity in terms of what you are exchanging. If you have a surplus with a country, the total value of what you are giving them through trade, income and transfers is greater than the total value of what they are giving you. There must be a deficit therefore in the financial account, which means that the total value of the flows of financial assets into your economy from theirs is greater than that flow from your economy to their's.

    Balancing your trade, meaning your current account, is a different issue. However, it is true that Neoclassical economists and Neoliberal ideologues often imply that, under liberalized free trade, current accounts should automatically balance, for the following reason:

    • Suppose country A (who uses currency A), have a deficit with country B (who uses currency B). B thus by definition has a surplus with A.

    • As this imbalance emerges, the demand for the currency B rises relative to before and to the demand for currency A, because their demand is derived from that for the goods and services sold nominally in those currencies, and when you buy goods from, say, the US, you pay in their currency, the dollar. Correspondly the demand for currency A would fall relative to B. So we would expect currency B to appreciate against currency A (so A's depreciates). But then B's exports to A would become more expensive and it's imports from A cheaper, and A's exports cheaper and it's imports from B more expensive. So the total exports from B to A would fall, it's imports from A would increase, i.e. A would export more B and import less than before. In quantity terms, this is an 'improvement' which would move the imbalance closer towards balance, so long as their is an imbalance, due to that imbalance's effect on the exchange rates. In brief, current account deficits are supposed to have a self-correcting tendency.

    • But this argument assumes a couple things: note that even that while the total value of B's exports fell if we only take into account their fall in quantity/volume, there was a positive effect on this total value due to appreciation of B's currency making exports more expensive; so they're exporting less, but getting more for each export. They are also importing more (negative effect on the CA), but at a lower price (positive effect). They're importing more, but paying less for each import. So the quantity effects on the CA balance is negative (i.e. decreases their surplus) for B, but the currency-monetary effect is positive (increases the surplus). The question is which of these outweights the other.

    • This is where neoclassical economics uses the idea of price elasticities, which tells you the proportion between a change in a price and the consequent change in the quantity demanded on the market. They use the Marshall-Lerner condition, which basically says that the trade of exports and imports is elastic overall (meaning that price changes cause proportionally bigger quantity changes). So if this condition applied, then B's surplus causes appreciations in B's currency, and the quantity changesn (which have a negative effect on their surplus)) are proportionally bigger than the price changes (which have a positive effect on their surplus), so it would decrease the surplus, bringing it closer to balance.

    • The argument here is symetrical for the deficit side of the equation.

    • It also assumes that the currencies can just appreciate/depreciate smoothly, i.e. it ignores exchange rate mechanisms, such as fixed or hybrid-fixed currencies countrols. It also ignores capital controls, e.g. on hot money flows between currencies, and the fact that countries A and B will often trade in currencies other than their own, including for things they produce, most importanly in the U$ dollar.

    So there have to be no exchange rate system controls, and the Marshall-Lerner condition would have to always be true. But these two conditions are not, in general, true, so the argument doesn't often hold, and the usefulness is severaly limited, as it evident by simply looking at trade in the real world, even if it can describe a certain market tendency among others.

    All this also of course ignores the essential, concrete reality of imperialism and colonialism, the role of the U$ dollar as the world's reserve currency, as well as other real world factors which throw a wrench in this simplified, metaphorically frictionless model of how and why countries engage in trade with each other. But China is no longer a country under the imperial boot, although it does continuously intervene to keep the RMB sufficiently low for trade.

  • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Why not just make all the goods that your country wants (especially if you’re an enormous country that can scale economies and has access to strategic materials like China) and then you’d have more stuff?

    Because you need raw materials to continue your current scale of manufacturing. Resource exploitation competes with land and labor needed for manufacturing capacity. What's more, resource exploitation has low marginal yield and high external costs, while manufacturing is comparatively higher yielding and cleaner.

    So you source materials abroad and import them for cheap, then transform them into high yield exports which you sell at a profit. This nets you a surplus that can be invested at home in higher quality domestic capital as well as beneficial social services like education and health care.

    And how do currency exchange markets fit in?

    Generally speaking, you want other people trading in your currency in order to increase its demand abroad. This biases trade in your favor, because you can produce currency very cheaply relative to what its traded at. So you print $100 note and buy a lump of iron. Then you transform the iron into nails that sell for $1000, but you demand payment in Domestic Money. This forces foreigners to sell you more of their iron in order to get Domestic Money to pay for your nails.

    Why don't foreigners simply produce their own nails? Because you have highly advanced and efficient forms of capital that produce nails incredibly cheaply. This makes them digging for iron a cheaper way of buying nails - short term - than building their own crude smithies.

    Because prices of currencies change the value of export/import and consequently you’d eventually have a country that exports and imports the same value of goods.

    Don't think of countries as operating with Exports and Imports. Think of them as producing Raw Materials against Finished Goods. The pricing simply becomes the ratio of raw to finished goods that is being exchanged. So, how many pounds of iron get you how many pounds of nails?

    Maybe I fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of trade.

    I mean, its complicated. At a superficial level, the purpose of trade is to simply acquire at a lower price abroad what would be a high price locally. So, an iron miner can dig for iron more easily than they can turn iron into nails. And a nail smith can forge nails more easily than they can dig for iron.

    But there's also a foreign policy angle to trade, wherein certain jobs are more desirable than others. Iron mining has a host of social costs internalized by the industry that smelting and forging doesn't. So you're better off making nails than digging for iron. Gearing your economy towards exports means establishing competitive capital such that you can employ more of your people in the higher quality jobs. And by having exclusive domain over capital, you can start dictating terms to the folks in the lower-end professions. You set up a virtuous (for you, vicious for your trade partners) cycle in which you keep more and more of the surplus value of trade in each exchange of iron for nails.

    This plays into the great geopolitical game of commerce, in which industrial nations have a financial incentive to keep unindustrialized nations in the dark on technology, in order to keep them churning out cheap raw materials.

  • ednice
    ·
    edit-2
    2 days ago

    deleted by creator

    • ElmLion [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      2 years ago

      Why does China becoming the world manufacturer help? I can make the most popular restaurant in the world by selling free food, if I had enough capitali I could outcompete every other restaurant in the world, but I'm still not benefitting if I'm not getting in enough money to replace all the food I give away.