Anti-sjw/anti-feminism craze was the co-opting moment imo. Dawkins got in some kind of trouble for iirc aggresively hitting on a woman in an elevator with him and there was a backlash against him for being a creep, and the anti-feminist backlash because someone dared slander papa dawkins was a huge push into reaction for the lot of them. That was my jumping off point. It feels like that happened just before or around the same time as gamergate so in hindsight that feels connected given the underlying :gamer-gulag: nature of reddit
Dawkins wasn't himself the perpetrator in "Elevatorgate." Rebecca Watson told a story of how she was sexually harassed by a man at a skeptic conference whose identity she did not disclose, and a bunch of shitheads in the skeptic "community" accused her of overreacting, one of whom was Dawkins. Honestly his comment was so fucking evil and unhinged that I think it's worth reproducing here:
cw for misogyny, sexual violence, and islamophobia
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and ... yawn ... .don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep 'chick', and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so...
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Okay but like, wasn’t the sexism of the Church literally one of the core reasons we opposed them??? Or was that just me?
Feminism was literally one of the things that made me be a loud annoying atheist. Like, did these dipshits forget what Christianity is?
Maybe I just got to those conclusions in a different order? For me it was “Being sexist, racist, and homophobic are bad” > “Believing in magic appears to make people more likely to be sexist, racist, and homophobic” > “Believing in magic is harmful” > “Religion bad”
Did they like, start at religion bad and work backwards and when they got to the bed point went “Ew no not like that”?
For a lot of them, I honestly don't think they took a similar approach. Something like "Islam is bad because it oppresses women" in hindsight just feels like a workaround to wanting to be racist but needing a different avenue to attack. Starting at "religion bad" and doing no further examination on why does sound about right sadly
But like, why religion bad if not for those reasons? If you want to be a misogynist Christianity is right there waiting for you, you can just be religious and join the dominant group in our society.
What is the point of complaining about religion when you want everything they want anyway?
never been to a moving church service & self-important enough that they want to feel superior to believers. a bit of half-understood rationalism that makes it uncomfortable to endorse a fake theology?
I think they first became atheists because religion is, well, kinda silly tbh, and dealing with the brain rot of conservative Christianity probably made them feel really confident (euphoric, even) about their own intelligence and critical thinking skills.
Then they were confronted with unfamiliar concepts and arguments from the progressive left, had a negative initial reaction and, thinking of themselves as intelligent and rational skeptics, dismissed them immediately ("these extreme liberals are just as ridiculous as religious conservatives!").
Finally they grew obsessed with "SJWs" and epically owning them with facts and logic and fell into the reactionary pipeline.
As far as i remember for many/most of the very loud ones it was also and maybe primarily an excuse to justify their racism and bigotry against Muslims.
War on Terror turned "New Atheism" into "Omg! We have to stop those evil Muslims from ruining Western society!!!"
Also, just the wages of YouTube and other terminally online personalities. There's only so much you can say about not believing in the supernatural. But guys like Sam Harris have to churn out infinite content. The takes just get worse and worse over time.
Yeah I never really understood how that happened either. Because my strong atheism led me to the obvious conclusion that western society is bad.
If opposition to religion is one of your core beliefs how the fuck could you end up at the conclusion of “Actually the societies created by the Christian church are the best”?? A large part of the reason western society sucks so bad is because of Christianity
Because my strong atheism led me to the obvious conclusion that western society is bad.
If you get your Atheism from Anton Chekhov or Simone De Beauvoir maybe. But Christopher Hitchens is going to offer very different vibes.
If opposition to religion is one of your core beliefs how the fuck could you end up at the conclusion of “Actually the societies created by the Christian church are the best”??
Because everyone knows that foreigners are savages and only upper class white male intellectuals are advanced enough to get beyond religion. And they're all Christians by default, because Christianity is the religion that's open-minded enough to allow for Atheism. So if everyone was Christian first, rather than some barbaric heathen religion, we could eventually do more Atheism under the tutelage of Wise White Men Masters.
I think there was a middle step. In between that, we heard how Muslims were just as bad as if not worse than Christians. There also was the Obama years where the religious right kinda went into retreat (I know that is simplifying it), which I think led to Muslims being an easier target.
Lotta atheists never reexamined their assumptions about women. They shifted from a theological framework of gender essentialism to an evolutionary framework of gender essentialism.
online atheists :solidarity: online christians
not seeing women as people
edit
calling that emoji 'solidarity', rather than hand-clasp or hand-shake or just 'arms' makes it hard to find
And I’m really still not sure how that happened, the whole point was being opposed to reactionary religion.
Anti-sjw/anti-feminism craze was the co-opting moment imo. Dawkins got in some kind of trouble for iirc aggresively hitting on a woman in an elevator with him and there was a backlash against him for being a creep, and the anti-feminist backlash because someone dared slander papa dawkins was a huge push into reaction for the lot of them. That was my jumping off point. It feels like that happened just before or around the same time as gamergate so in hindsight that feels connected given the underlying :gamer-gulag: nature of reddit
Dawkins wasn't himself the perpetrator in "Elevatorgate." Rebecca Watson told a story of how she was sexually harassed by a man at a skeptic conference whose identity she did not disclose, and a bunch of shitheads in the skeptic "community" accused her of overreacting, one of whom was Dawkins. Honestly his comment was so fucking evil and unhinged that I think it's worth reproducing here:
cw for misogyny, sexual violence, and islamophobia
Thanks for the correction but also what in the absolute fuck was that response he wrote
:jesus-christ:
deleted by creator
Okay but like, wasn’t the sexism of the Church literally one of the core reasons we opposed them??? Or was that just me?
Feminism was literally one of the things that made me be a loud annoying atheist. Like, did these dipshits forget what Christianity is?
Maybe I just got to those conclusions in a different order? For me it was “Being sexist, racist, and homophobic are bad” > “Believing in magic appears to make people more likely to be sexist, racist, and homophobic” > “Believing in magic is harmful” > “Religion bad”
Did they like, start at religion bad and work backwards and when they got to the bed point went “Ew no not like that”?
For a lot of them, I honestly don't think they took a similar approach. Something like "Islam is bad because it oppresses women" in hindsight just feels like a workaround to wanting to be racist but needing a different avenue to attack. Starting at "religion bad" and doing no further examination on why does sound about right sadly
But like, why religion bad if not for those reasons? If you want to be a misogynist Christianity is right there waiting for you, you can just be religious and join the dominant group in our society.
What is the point of complaining about religion when you want everything they want anyway?
never been to a moving church service & self-important enough that they want to feel superior to believers. a bit of half-understood rationalism that makes it uncomfortable to endorse a fake theology?
I think they first became atheists because religion is, well, kinda silly tbh, and dealing with the brain rot of conservative Christianity probably made them feel really confident (euphoric, even) about their own intelligence and critical thinking skills.
Then they were confronted with unfamiliar concepts and arguments from the progressive left, had a negative initial reaction and, thinking of themselves as intelligent and rational skeptics, dismissed them immediately ("these extreme liberals are just as ridiculous as religious conservatives!").
Finally they grew obsessed with "SJWs" and epically owning them with facts and logic and fell into the reactionary pipeline.
Relevant :citations-needed: https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-12-new-atheist-celebrities-crusaders-for-empire
My first episode I ever listened to back in the day
As far as i remember for many/most of the very loud ones it was also and maybe primarily an excuse to justify their racism and bigotry against Muslims.
War on Terror turned "New Atheism" into "Omg! We have to stop those evil Muslims from ruining Western society!!!"
Also, just the wages of YouTube and other terminally online personalities. There's only so much you can say about not believing in the supernatural. But guys like Sam Harris have to churn out infinite content. The takes just get worse and worse over time.
Yeah I never really understood how that happened either. Because my strong atheism led me to the obvious conclusion that western society is bad.
If opposition to religion is one of your core beliefs how the fuck could you end up at the conclusion of “Actually the societies created by the Christian church are the best”?? A large part of the reason western society sucks so bad is because of Christianity
If you get your Atheism from Anton Chekhov or Simone De Beauvoir maybe. But Christopher Hitchens is going to offer very different vibes.
Because everyone knows that foreigners are savages and only upper class white male intellectuals are advanced enough to get beyond religion. And they're all Christians by default, because Christianity is the religion that's open-minded enough to allow for Atheism. So if everyone was Christian first, rather than some barbaric heathen religion, we could eventually do more Atheism under the tutelage of Wise White Men Masters.
I think there was a middle step. In between that, we heard how Muslims were just as bad as if not worse than Christians. There also was the Obama years where the religious right kinda went into retreat (I know that is simplifying it), which I think led to Muslims being an easier target.
Lotta atheists never reexamined their assumptions about women. They shifted from a theological framework of gender essentialism to an evolutionary framework of gender essentialism.
online atheists:solidarity:online christiansnot seeing women as peopleedit
calling that emoji 'solidarity', rather than hand-clasp or hand-shake or just 'arms' makes it hard to find