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Norman Finkelstein versus Angela Davids
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what a fucking douche, we're somehow not allowed to talk about or act against 'intruments of state repression' until we have communism? weakening the carceral state surely has nothing to do with a revolution succeeding in the first place, does it? even if lenin was gospel, it's a misappropriation to think lenin's words apply to the capitalist state! you think he was diligently fighting to preserve the institutions of the tsar in the hope of turning their purpose around once power was taken? this is like a fucking blanquist take that is entirely undermined with how the USSR completely abolished & steadily recreated criminal justice. Lenin wouldn't like to abolish the police in a socialist state, but basically did so in the capitalist one.
Finkelstein is just possessed of the kind of blinders old leftists put up where the only path is the one i'm advocating, everything else is a distraction--this is why we invented intersectionalism but ig some dogs were too old to learn that trick
Finkelstein is just possessed of the kind of blinders old leftists put up where the only path is the one i’m advocating, everything else is a distraction–this is why we invented intersectionalism but ig some dogs were too old to learn that trick
tbh this isn't an old leftist thing. it's pretty common all over the left side of the political spectrum.
yeah, true, but the younger the better acquainted with intersectional axes and less likely to admonish a particular emphasis in someone's praxis (say with race, lgbt+, environmentalism) as "distracting" from socialist aims
i am a nonbinary person who has been told multiple times by "marxists" several years younger than me that trans rights are a bourgeois distraction keeping us from the revolution so idk if that's even true.
I quite like Norm, and M-Ls in general, but I think it's a sick joke to denigrate abolitionism as "not on the historical agenda," and then back that up with a fucking quote from S&R. Yeah, stageist theories of revolution are lookin real fresh a hundred years on from the revolution. They still pumping plastic through Lenin's carcass or has that program been cut to fund the war effort?
I don't even think he's wrong to criticize Davis' recent popularity with the "progressive" elite, or her (supposed) position that abolition is a policy proposal rather than a revolutionary demand, but that's not what i'm hearing Finkelstein say. looking at a system of mass torture and control on an unprecedented scale -- not in Lenin's day, and not ever in the history of the world except perhaps Nazi Germany and, as Davis regularly points out, occupied Palestine -- and saying "no, we can't seek to destroy that until we've run down Comrade Vlad's Handy Dandy Full Communism Checklist" is not just callous, but oblivious. Reading between the lines, I sense that his real gripe is that a revolutionary communist was mildly critical of Bernie, a social democrat.
what a dick, why attack her specifically ? god forbid the women who watched her friends get shot and imprisoned think that dismantling that specific system is crucial to the overall victory. also yeah libs like her thats not her fault they are dumb. Liberals LOVE malcolm x and beyonce will sing about how shes just like him but that doesn't mean anything.
Instead of hinting Angela Davis sold-out why Norman Finkelstein is not willing to talk about Mind-Control cult w/satellites/military tech of behavior modification & mind manipulation? Why Norman is not telling youth how #COINTELPRO is a live &well/many White Liberals enforce it?
:thinkin-lenin:
I'd like to hear in detail why he thinks the filthy rich crooks do praise Davis. What is their goal? What do they hope to gain?
His point, expressed in the worst possible way, is that she doesn't threaten power and is part of the state's recuperation of the Black radical tradition. We all know the fate of actual Black radicals and revolutionaries, so the fact that she can continue to give speaking tours while people like Mumia Abu-Jamal rot in prison is telling. Even someone like Omali Yeshitela, who's a bit of a crank, received more harassment than her. She once upon a time was a threat to the state, but that time has long since passed.
Are you asking because you don't know? Or do you just want him specifically to address this?
Both, kinda. I can't think of any reasons that would be bad. I think if his argument is only a rhetorical question it's a bit lacking. Surely he knows how Engels got all that money?
I think his point is that Angela Davis no longer threatens power. In fact, it could be argued that ultimately her actions support power. Prison abolition simply is not on the table and never was, so her advocating for it just allows centimillionaires an opportunity to seem scandalously progressive in a way that will never threaten their wealth.
The rich get a kind of liberal clout by getting to be associated with someone like Davis, it allows them to cognitively separate themselves from Charles Koch while having to put exactly 0 skin in the game.
How does Davis' actions support power? Does she not accomplish anything beyond being a "vibe" for the rich? Is Norm different from her in this respect?
Is Norm different from her in this respect
no, he's been 'cancelled', therefore more insurgent and more morally pure than the lady who's actually been prosecuted and imprisoned by the state :peltier-laugh:
Yeah I wouldn't say I specifically argue that, but I know Norm does. As far as I can remember his beef is her criticizing Bernie as economistic and not being able to speak on race.
MF_COOM directly answered dis, but here's some perhaps relevant consideration from that Marx guy.
Also see: duplicitous SPD in interwar Germany under Ebert, Constantine's recuperation of Christianity effectively neutering its symbolic class conscious political potential under the rebranded "Holy" Roman Empire, etc.
Do capitalists still need those types of figures? Did they not complete their revolution many decades ago? Do they need to justify themselves at this point when they already control all levers of power?
there might be a few libertarians imagining it prunes the state apparatus & would replace it with private debtors prisons but it's not like rich activist liberals are incapable of funding/supporting genuinely good things
"oh no a rich guy has donated to my soup kitchen :ooooooooooooooh: what am i doing wrong???"
He's just saying out loud what a lot of Black radicals have been thinking except in the worst possible way possible. She hasn't threaten power in a very long time, which is why she's still alive to give speaking tours while most Black radicals are either martyred, rotting in prison, or have been recently freed after spending decades in prison. It's just part of the state’s recuperation of the Black radical tradition.
This is yet another example of mayos needing to stfu and stay in their lane.
You can say her image has been partially recuperated by liberals, but that's about it.
Common Finkelstein L
