I flatly reject your characterization of lemmygrad (the swerf claim is bullshit) but anyway you are more significantly incorrect in imagining people as so static in their beliefs and alignment. People who are interested in radical politics are people who are alienated from the status quo and overwhelmingly clinging to the psychological bouies of whatever interpretive lens they have been able to determine -- from the vantage point of mostly-narrow experience with other lenses and what their current one is -- suits them the best. If they encounter something on a regular basis that can plausibly serve them better even despite the biases of their current view, they will generally accept it over time.
I think there is an actual ability to do more than just preserve our virginal purity of comfort and illusory social harmony from being "diluted" by these people who you only rhwtorically conceptualize like a toxin or chaff.
so do you think that lemmygrad would eventually change their rules on sectarianism, or will it need to be heavily moderated on hexbear's end for the entirety of federation?
page 1 still goes back to a year ago -- which incidentally is user "TheConquestOfBread" reposting from Hexbear, and there multiple posts from that blatant Anarcho-Bidenist ziq or one of their cult members (I shudder to think what someone who follows them is like). A lot of the rest of it is reasonable conversation about what the ML/anarchist split is and also why those liberals on other instances even bother to call themselves "anarchists" to begin with.
Like, yeah, some of them will need to temper their speech to participate here, but it's not a well of seething hatred like the "anti-tankie" instances are for their respective target. I am confident that the vast majority of them can hang and the outliers can stay where they are or get bonked.
if you sort by comments alone it takes 12 pages to reach a year ago
this is an example of a highly upvoted comment on lemmygrad, 25 upvotes from 4 days ago: "Yeah, Anarchists don’t seem to actually want to succeed in anything. They just want to perpetually feel superior about their morals as well as comfortable that nothing will ever change. They want to be cool, contrarian good guys, imagining a world that will only ever exist in books and stories."
is it possible you think a lot of this is reasonable conversation because you were already reprimanded for sectarianism twice on this site?
Get over yourself, the one comment that I can read was me correctly saying Trots don't deserve respect as a "sect" because they don't. Whichever mod removed that made an error, whether in understanding site policy or the paradox of tolerance, it is not for me to speculate.
If you want to keep up the hall monitor routine, report this comment and we can see what the reason given is, or we can try returning to talking like human beings instead of you making precious little insinuations about how I am a Bad Leftist who is best ignored.
To answer your question, I don't believe the comment is accurate, but I do believe that the overwhelming majority of self-identified anarchists on the fediverse, which is where that conversation is taking place and functionally does not include Hexbear -- yet -- are accurately described by that comment, because the overwhelming majority that I have seen on lemmy.ml, on lemmy.world, on blahaj zone, and sopuli, b**haw, etc. are very obviously Anarcho-Bidenists who I saw multiple times arguing in parallel with neoliberal anticommunists in a united front against "tankies". Obviously there was the occassional "I didn't think they would eat my face" moment, but I never saw that produce an epiphany that maybe they had made poor allies, and I made a point of asking this rather gently a few times when it happened!
So that user needs to log off for a bit, but the comment could have been given literally one single qualifier and it would have been fine.
Edit: On Hexbear, the standard line from anarchists who express their opinion on such matters is, in so many words, "I support AES in its struggle against western imperialism as something material less malignant in virtually every respect." That is something that the anarcho-bidenists I was reading the replies of could never manage, so there will definitely be culture shock but I think the hostility reflected in that comment will be tempered because it is not meant to be directed at actually good leftists, which some overly-online MLs might believe are well-represented by the fucks on lemmy, etc. right now.
in that case, i hope your beliefs about them are real, as if their saying anarchists really is just is a meme shorthand for anarcho-bidenists and not indicative of a site-wide trend of severe sectarianism, then federation would simply be a case of using more accurate terminology
i don't personally buy it when you have the site admin posting stuff like this about anarchists and literally replying "anarchism is not a socialist ideology" to someone saying that they, like you, respect nuanced anarchists
Meh, the Dune Fox can stay in his domain then, but to be clear what I mean is not that X is what those posters are "really saying", rather that they are incorrect but that the change that would make them correct is both extremely simple and unavoidably obvious to someone who has only seen lemmy anarchists (and irl punks, sometimes, maybe) now seeing Hexbear anarchists, and most of them can thereby stand to modify their behavior and many, I believe, will even modify their thoughts. Those who don't can be banned, but are a limited number. Again, I assert to you that people, those alienated from society most of all, are often quite malleable, and in this case enculturation can very easily work in our favor.
i'm still a tad hesitant about what I've seen, but you make good points and have more experience with lemmygrad and its userbase than I do, so you've convinced me that federation with lemmygrad could work with a heavy hand to make sure it doesn't negatively affect hexbear's anarchist users
the first time I found out lemmygrad even existed was from a few months back when a new user who said they were from lemmygrad imploded all over a thread after a poster here said they enjoyed pornographic video games and sex positivity (aka not taped porn from the porn industry). the new user then started to link nofap threads from lemmygrad, and then deleted their account afterwards it was a very moment
right off the bat my first experience of the site was threads about dudes trying not to zerk it (as a gay dude the religious guilt energy in these threads were nauseating), and then i clicked to the main page and saw some genzedong looking anti-anarchist memes (which in retrospect probably was actually from c/genzedong) so I really got the worst possible first impression of the place which I see now probably ain't too representative of how it is normally lmao, and that instantly made the site and talk of federating with it unfairly to me
I flatly reject your characterization of lemmygrad (the swerf claim is bullshit) but anyway you are more significantly incorrect in imagining people as so static in their beliefs and alignment. People who are interested in radical politics are people who are alienated from the status quo and overwhelmingly clinging to the psychological bouies of whatever interpretive lens they have been able to determine -- from the vantage point of mostly-narrow experience with other lenses and what their current one is -- suits them the best. If they encounter something on a regular basis that can plausibly serve them better even despite the biases of their current view, they will generally accept it over time.
I think there is an actual ability to do more than just preserve our virginal purity of comfort and illusory social harmony from being "diluted" by these people who you only rhwtorically conceptualize like a toxin or chaff.
so do you think that lemmygrad would eventually change their rules on sectarianism, or will it need to be heavily moderated on hexbear's end for the entirety of federation?
https://lemmygrad.ml/search/q/anarchists/type/All/sort/New/listing_type/All/community_id/0/creator_id/0/page/1
this entire search page is but a single week of lemmygrad posting about anarchists
The page I'm getting from that link includes posts from literally multiple years ago.
my bad, I forgot the search doesn't default to new, i'll change it
https://lemmygrad.ml/search/q/anarchists/type/All/sort/New/listing_type/All/community_id/0/creator_id/0/page/1
page 1 still goes back to a year ago -- which incidentally is user "TheConquestOfBread" reposting from Hexbear, and there multiple posts from that blatant Anarcho-Bidenist ziq or one of their cult members (I shudder to think what someone who follows them is like). A lot of the rest of it is reasonable conversation about what the ML/anarchist split is and also why those liberals on other instances even bother to call themselves "anarchists" to begin with.
Like, yeah, some of them will need to temper their speech to participate here, but it's not a well of seething hatred like the "anti-tankie" instances are for their respective target. I am confident that the vast majority of them can hang and the outliers can stay where they are or get bonked.
https://lemmygrad.ml/search/q/anarchists/type/Comments/sort/New/listing_type/All/community_id/0/creator_id/0/page/1
if you sort by comments alone it takes 12 pages to reach a year ago
this is an example of a highly upvoted comment on lemmygrad, 25 upvotes from 4 days ago: "Yeah, Anarchists don’t seem to actually want to succeed in anything. They just want to perpetually feel superior about their morals as well as comfortable that nothing will ever change. They want to be cool, contrarian good guys, imagining a world that will only ever exist in books and stories."
is it possible you think a lot of this is reasonable conversation because you were already reprimanded for sectarianism twice on this site?
Get over yourself, the one comment that I can read was me correctly saying Trots don't deserve respect as a "sect" because they don't. Whichever mod removed that made an error, whether in understanding site policy or the paradox of tolerance, it is not for me to speculate.
If you want to keep up the hall monitor routine, report this comment and we can see what the reason given is, or we can try returning to talking like human beings instead of you making precious little insinuations about how I am a Bad Leftist who is best ignored.
i wasn't saying you should be ignored, or that you were a Bad Leftist, and i apologize if it came off that way
i was just asking you to reflect on any bias that might lead you to dismiss sectarianism like this
To answer your question, I don't believe the comment is accurate, but I do believe that the overwhelming majority of self-identified anarchists on the fediverse, which is where that conversation is taking place and functionally does not include Hexbear -- yet -- are accurately described by that comment, because the overwhelming majority that I have seen on lemmy.ml, on lemmy.world, on blahaj zone, and sopuli, b**haw, etc. are very obviously Anarcho-Bidenists who I saw multiple times arguing in parallel with neoliberal anticommunists in a united front against "tankies". Obviously there was the occassional "I didn't think they would eat my face" moment, but I never saw that produce an epiphany that maybe they had made poor allies, and I made a point of asking this rather gently a few times when it happened!
So that user needs to log off for a bit, but the comment could have been given literally one single qualifier and it would have been fine.
Edit: On Hexbear, the standard line from anarchists who express their opinion on such matters is, in so many words, "I support AES in its struggle against western imperialism as something material less malignant in virtually every respect." That is something that the anarcho-bidenists I was reading the replies of could never manage, so there will definitely be culture shock but I think the hostility reflected in that comment will be tempered because it is not meant to be directed at actually good leftists, which some overly-online MLs might believe are well-represented by the fucks on lemmy, etc. right now.
in that case, i hope your beliefs about them are real, as if their saying anarchists really is just is a meme shorthand for anarcho-bidenists and not indicative of a site-wide trend of severe sectarianism, then federation would simply be a case of using more accurate terminology
i don't personally buy it when you have the site admin posting stuff like this about anarchists and literally replying "anarchism is not a socialist ideology" to someone saying that they, like you, respect nuanced anarchists
Meh, the Dune Fox can stay in his domain then, but to be clear what I mean is not that X is what those posters are "really saying", rather that they are incorrect but that the change that would make them correct is both extremely simple and unavoidably obvious to someone who has only seen lemmy anarchists (and irl punks, sometimes, maybe) now seeing Hexbear anarchists, and most of them can thereby stand to modify their behavior and many, I believe, will even modify their thoughts. Those who don't can be banned, but are a limited number. Again, I assert to you that people, those alienated from society most of all, are often quite malleable, and in this case enculturation can very easily work in our favor.
i'm still a tad hesitant about what I've seen, but you make good points and have more experience with lemmygrad and its userbase than I do, so you've convinced me that federation with lemmygrad could work with a heavy hand to make sure it doesn't negatively affect hexbear's anarchist users
the first time I found out lemmygrad even existed was from a few months back when a new user who said they were from lemmygrad imploded all over a thread after a poster here said they enjoyed pornographic video games and sex positivity (aka not taped porn from the porn industry). the new user then started to link nofap threads from lemmygrad, and then deleted their account afterwards it was a very
moment
right off the bat my first experience of the site was threads about dudes trying not to zerk it (as a gay dude the religious guilt energy in these threads were nauseating), and then i clicked to the main page and saw some genzedong looking anti-anarchist memes (which in retrospect probably was actually from c/genzedong) so I really got the worst possible first impression of the place which I see now probably ain't too representative of how it is normally lmao, and that instantly made the site and talk of federating with it unfairly
to me