There was also the option of simply evacuating ethnic Russians from the Donbas rather than launching an invasion into Ukraine. Cede the territory to the Ukrainian nationalists
Do you hear yourself? That's a horrible option. "Just give the Nazis what they want."
The trolley problem, but on one side of the track are 300,000 civilians of various origins all tied to the tracks and on the other, a fascist waiting patiently by the trolley stop to receive a basket of treats.
Yes. The lives of hundreds of thousands of people are worth more than whether or not some Banderite gets to be smug on Twitter.
This isn't a question of fascist demands, its a question of preserving civilian lives.
Invading the Donbas didn't end fascism in Eastern Europe any more than invading Afghanistan ended the threat of domestic terrorism in the United States.
It literally doesn't matter how you try to justify this humanitarian atrocity. The Russian invasion only served the interests of European fascism in the long run, without doing anything to preserve the lives of the Donbas residents it was supposed to protect.
Might as well suggest we needed to bomb Auschwitz in order to kill all the German guards as bomb Ukraine to kill the fascists.
Yeah? Some anti Nazi resistance fighters asked the RAF to bomb the death camps, because anything was preferable to Auschwitz continuing to exist. There were people who wanted that.
Some anti Nazi resistance fighters asked the RAF to bomb the death camps
Well, if some random assorted collection of anonymous people said so, I guess the Allies really missed an opportunity to do an even more reprehensible attack than Tokyo or Dresden.
"In June 1944, John W. Pehle, the executive director of the War Refugee Board, appealed to the U.S. government to bomb the railways leading into Auschwitz. In July, Johan J. Smertenko, the executive vice chairman of the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe, sent a letter to President Roosevelt asking him to bomb the extermination camps, especially the “poison gas chambers of [the] Auschwitz and Birkenau camps.”"
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/why-wasnt-auschwitz-bombed/
They can keep fomenting unrest that spills over the border while still maintaining plausible deniability, much like how they legally recognize one country two systems in regard to Taiwan while ratcheting up tension in the region with the navy.
I would agree with the statement quoted earlier if the word "actively" was replaced with "openly".
You're delusional if you think the "international community" (i.e. the West) wouldn't support Ukraine against Russia no matter what. The facts don't matter, if Russia had to respond to a literal attack they'd still be calling it an "unprovoked act of aggression" and sending Ukraine cluster bombs.
And again the proposal here, deporting ethnic Russians from their homelands in the Donbass, is just categorically bad. Plus the "international community" would condemn it as Russia "kidnapping Ukrainian citizens".
By giving into this one demand you put the fascists in the position where any further escalation is purely on them. If they stupidly took the bait in that situation the international community would be totally opposed to them, and not shipping them cluster bombs.
i.e. if they escalated against Russia and Russia responded. It's the same action from Russia, just under slightly different circumstances. The West would have treated it the exact same way.
As hawkish as the yanks are I think they're smart enough to not actively support Nazi paramilitaries doing border raids on a nuclear power. If you put Azov in the position where they're the aggressor I highly doubt they'd be getting much if any support from the west.
Azov spent 8 years being the aggressor and it didn't dampen US support of them at all.
They condemned that dumbass military adventure where a bunch of mercs drove across the border in armored trucks just to get blown up by Russian helicopters, and subsequently the media ghouls barely talked about it
You're contradicting yourself here. The US didn't condemn it they just didn't talk about it. Now the US is talking about providing Ukraine and it's far-right paramilitaries with cluster bombs. That seems like support to me, actual material support and not just cheering on a failed invasion.
That's slop for hogs, it's just there to keep the American people docile. It doesn't have any immediate effects on the American state.
Propaganda does have long-term effects on American elites, you can see the effects that its had on them over the many years. Heck, just compare HW Bush and Dubya Bush. However, this isn't the propaganda's intended purpose.
Sure but we're still in pure propaganda territory. You haven't shown that there's an actual material change in US support. You would need to show me some sort of change or reduction in actual material US support to convince me. Ukraine has attacked the Kerch Bridge and sent raids and artillery into Belgorad without the US doing more than tut-tuting. Ukraine continues to strike Donetsk City with artillery, despite Russia recognizing them as being independent at the start of the war. Russia then annexed Donetsk, making it legal Russian territory and the artillery attacks still continued. The entire spring offensive has been into Russian-annexed territory and it's had no effect on US/NATO support. The only thing that is effecting US support is depletion and self-preservation for the US. I don't know where you're getting this idea that Russia could have pulled off some kind of weird political trick to make US propaganda work against its own interests.
Do you hear yourself? That's a horrible option. "Just give the Nazis what they want."
"The Russians have kidnapped x citizens from Ukraine" literally it's why Putin is wanted by the ICC lmfao
The trolley problem, but on one side of the track are 300,000 civilians of various origins all tied to the tracks and on the other, a fascist waiting patiently by the trolley stop to receive a basket of treats.
Yes. The lives of hundreds of thousands of people are worth more than whether or not some Banderite gets to be smug on Twitter.
Fascists don't stop when you give in to their demands. We learned that lesson almost 90 years ago.
This isn't a question of fascist demands, its a question of preserving civilian lives.
Invading the Donbas didn't end fascism in Eastern Europe any more than invading Afghanistan ended the threat of domestic terrorism in the United States.
It literally doesn't matter how you try to justify this humanitarian atrocity. The Russian invasion only served the interests of European fascism in the long run, without doing anything to preserve the lives of the Donbas residents it was supposed to protect.
Might as well suggest we needed to bomb Auschwitz in order to kill all the German guards as bomb Ukraine to kill the fascists.
Yeah? Some anti Nazi resistance fighters asked the RAF to bomb the death camps, because anything was preferable to Auschwitz continuing to exist. There were people who wanted that.
Well, if some random assorted collection of anonymous people said so, I guess the Allies really missed an opportunity to do an even more reprehensible attack than Tokyo or Dresden.
Heres an article with some names. 5 min research.
"In June 1944, John W. Pehle, the executive director of the War Refugee Board, appealed to the U.S. government to bomb the railways leading into Auschwitz. In July, Johan J. Smertenko, the executive vice chairman of the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe, sent a letter to President Roosevelt asking him to bomb the extermination camps, especially the “poison gas chambers of [the] Auschwitz and Birkenau camps.”" https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/why-wasnt-auschwitz-bombed/
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lmao I hope this is sarcasm.
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How do you think those Nazi paramilitaries got there?
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They can keep fomenting unrest that spills over the border while still maintaining plausible deniability, much like how they legally recognize one country two systems in regard to Taiwan while ratcheting up tension in the region with the navy.
I would agree with the statement quoted earlier if the word "actively" was replaced with "openly".
You're delusional if you think the "international community" (i.e. the West) wouldn't support Ukraine against Russia no matter what. The facts don't matter, if Russia had to respond to a literal attack they'd still be calling it an "unprovoked act of aggression" and sending Ukraine cluster bombs.
And again the proposal here, deporting ethnic Russians from their homelands in the Donbass, is just categorically bad. Plus the "international community" would condemn it as Russia "kidnapping Ukrainian citizens".
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i.e. if they escalated against Russia and Russia responded. It's the same action from Russia, just under slightly different circumstances. The West would have treated it the exact same way.
Azov spent 8 years being the aggressor and it didn't dampen US support of them at all.
You're contradicting yourself here. The US didn't condemn it they just didn't talk about it. Now the US is talking about providing Ukraine and it's far-right paramilitaries with cluster bombs. That seems like support to me, actual material support and not just cheering on a failed invasion.
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Who gives a shit about media coverage if the US continues to provide weapons to the guys who did the border raid?
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That's slop for hogs, it's just there to keep the American people docile. It doesn't have any immediate effects on the American state.
Propaganda does have long-term effects on American elites, you can see the effects that its had on them over the many years. Heck, just compare HW Bush and Dubya Bush. However, this isn't the propaganda's intended purpose.
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Sure but we're still in pure propaganda territory. You haven't shown that there's an actual material change in US support. You would need to show me some sort of change or reduction in actual material US support to convince me. Ukraine has attacked the Kerch Bridge and sent raids and artillery into Belgorad without the US doing more than tut-tuting. Ukraine continues to strike Donetsk City with artillery, despite Russia recognizing them as being independent at the start of the war. Russia then annexed Donetsk, making it legal Russian territory and the artillery attacks still continued. The entire spring offensive has been into Russian-annexed territory and it's had no effect on US/NATO support. The only thing that is effecting US support is depletion and self-preservation for the US. I don't know where you're getting this idea that Russia could have pulled off some kind of weird political trick to make US propaganda work against its own interests.
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