All superheroes are fascist if you apply adult reason to them
Come on, now, that's not true. The X-Men are about as explicitly anti-Fascist as you can get, for instance.
Batman isnt even that bad in terms of fash superheroes.
He's just a Pinkerton with a bat fetish. Shy of doing a full blown "Super Hitler", you're going to be hard pressed to beat that.
he doesnt do much for Gotham that Sherlock Holmes didnt do for London
Sherlock Holmes was a Facts And Logic response to Victorian Era mysticism. His whole schtick was debunking the paranormal. Half the time, modern Batman comics have him fighting (or teaming up with) Real Wizards. Hell, current arch-nemesis is a century's old alchemist who heads up a clan of mystic ninja assassins.
The thing that makes Batman fascist is often in the negative. His enemies all tend to benefit from or embody late 20th century progressive tropes. Penguin is a crippled foreigner who uses his disability to shield himself from culpability. The Joker is constantly getting let out of Arkam Asylum either thanks to its lax security or to due to duping some gullible psychologist. Mr. Freeze is a villain for wanting to save his cryogenically frozen wife at the expense of Wayne Industry's bottom line. Two-Face is a literally two-faced politician. Poison Ivy is an ultra-feminist eco-terrorist.
Batman is the only "normal" one. And he's "normal" because he's the guy clear-eyed enough to keep to his conservative family values and strong (read: rich) enough to defeat the evil progressive bad guys when The Government is too incompetent or too corrupt or too paralyzed by their innate liberal weaknesses to try.
Freeze has no connection to Wayne Industry's bottom line, and Penguin is literal aristocracy. He's also rarely if ever a foreigner. He is from old money in Gotham like Bruce, but his family one way or another lost it but kept the prestige so he goes to Britain and comes back. Telltale plays with this nicely, but usually he is just an aristocratic "legitimate" businessman. No progressive trope about him. You could've went with Ras or Anarky, why use Penguin?
Freeze has no connection to Wayne Industry's bottom line
He's introduced as a Wayne Industries employee who gets fired for misappropriating company property.
Penguin is literal aristocracy
That... depends heavily on the writer. Sometimes he's born into a rich family and breaks bad. Sometimes he's a come-up-from-nothing crime boss. But the general theme of the character is that you can't trust successful disabled people because they could only have come into their money by being crooks.
No progressive trope about him.
Its a very old trope, because its ultimately a commentary on eugenics. He's literally "born bad", in the same way the crippled guy from 300 is just naturally bad. The argument is that these guys shouldn't have been allowed to survive to adulthood.
You could've went with Ras or Anarky
I thought I hit on Ras with the Evil Wizards comment. Anarky isn't really a mainline villain.
That is only Freeze's origin in New 52. The iconic tragic origin his boss is Boyle. That's the one just about everyone thinks of, and it is sympathetic, certainly not vilifying him for that. Hell I'd say Freeze is made too sympathetic, too much of an anti-hero in comics. I like the one moment in the tapes from AC that has Strange point that Nora didn't want this shit, and that Victor is essentially dehumanizing her by keeping her alive in a block of ice against her will.
As for Penguin, the general theme is not that you cannot trust disabled people. I can maybe see the point that the old trope is present, but it sure as hell is not the general theme. A theme gets played with, or is a constant, Penguin being untrustworthy because of disability even as subtext or just what is conveyed implicitly (which is not a general theme, it is an implication) is only really a thing in the Burton film. Penguin was not disabled in the comics for decades. it is not till 1981 that we see the origin that he was bullied for being short, and had to carry an umbrella cause his worried mother didn't want him to die from pneumonia like his father. He is made a high society outcast in 1992. I can kinda see the "unworthy" thing in The Batman where he shows up to a Wayne party that he is not invited to and is rude but Bruce and Alfred also come off like they are more annoyed that he doesn't fit in. his family is "the bad billionaires" essentially, and in contrast Alfred's grandfather back in England was a butler for a Cobblepot and was treated like shit. So the classic "we can show bad rich people, but only if we also have good rich people as a focus"
I can't find anything beyond Arkham and Telltale that has him be British and in both cases he is not a foreigner, but very much old money in Gotham who went to boarding school. You want to actually criticize the text itself the way more on point criticism is that Penguin is used to justify felony disenfranchisement. Saying his general theme is that cripples are bad is so loose and tangential at best beyond Batman Returns (and even then not a foreigner) , whereas Penguin has consistently been used as someone who gets parole and manipulates the law into thinking he has reformed when he is really still evil. It goes as far back as Batman 36 from 1946 with him "going legit" but not really.
This trope was repeated again and again to the point that it is now undeniably the crux of the character. B:TAS even has an episode using it. In one story he legit does reform and get released but sees a cartoon belittling Penguins so he returns to crime in anger. Batman 41 has him have another business that is a front for robbing people, etc etc. It really has been THE Penguin trope since fucking 1946 and no one wants to break from it.
I am not defending the way Batman stories handle disability, but it is such a stretch to say that's the general theme for penguin, or that it even applies a lot of the time. I know the trope, but once it can even apply to Penguin he had already been established and very soon after it could be applied he was specifically made an aristocrat. Outside of Arkham, and Batman Returns I just don't see that holding weight. Particularly when there are other tropes that Penguin stories play into much harder than going for eugenics. If anything it is more than they play him up as slimy and grotesque because he is an aristocrat. That is not a good trope, and disability shouldn't be used as punishment full stop, but it comes as a corollary to someone being evil because they are an aristocrat. A better example of this would be Salazar from Resident Evil 4 which don't get me wrong is cringey as well for that. I think this video on that character and particularly some of the comment section break it down better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOuTzNQ2YM
Essentially they target and dehumanize disability as a means of mocking aristocrats in the same way one might play up Hitler's fucked up body or Goebbels disabilities. On its face a means of drawing attention to the fact that these people who see themselves as inherently superior are in fact possessing of the very traits they would see others exterminated for. It plays into the same bigotry towards the disability or otherness that said fascists and aristocrats are vile for upholding. It makes hypocrisy the sin, NOT bigotry. like that Preacher panel people love to bring up that mocks white supremacists with double chins and beer guts, I get the point, but in the end it is just reinforcing the premise of said assholes.
Boy that was a tangent.....oh yeah Penguin. So yeah I think Batman villains are often made more sympathetic than Batman himself. Sometimes in a way that goes too far, and regardless it serves to sorta just say "look Batman feels bad for Killer Croc and him being dehumanized due to his disability, that makes it complex when Batman beats the shit out of him and also makes Croc the real victim when he murders people" etc. The problem with a lot of sympathetic villains in Batman stories is they need to keep coming back, so their sympathetic act has to either justify repeat offenses, or they choose to keep making mistakes etc. The complexity is sacrificed for serialization
The problem with a lot of sympathetic villains in Batman stories is they need to keep coming back, so their sympathetic act has to either justify repeat offenses, or they choose to keep making mistakes etc.
Very true. And also one reason the comics can't be particularly Utopian, as they would stray too far away from the premise to be recognizable to new readers.
The complexity is sacrificed for serialization
One reason why I grew into an Anime fan over time. They tend to have much better direction and purpose
X-Men deserves credit, yeah, its foundation is so much less cringe than most superheroes. Its drama comes from people and how they interact with the world, rather than constantly edging with that dreadful "oohoohoo but if PowerMan was just a little less selfless he could really fuck you peons up, and he'd be right to do it because you worms hurt his feelings as a kid" shit. At least X-Men is about adults protecting and fostering a community of outcasts at its core.
Come on, now, that's not true. The X-Men are about as explicitly anti-Fascist as you can get, for instance.
He's just a Pinkerton with a bat fetish. Shy of doing a full blown "Super Hitler", you're going to be hard pressed to beat that.
Sherlock Holmes was a Facts And Logic response to Victorian Era mysticism. His whole schtick was debunking the paranormal. Half the time, modern Batman comics have him fighting (or teaming up with) Real Wizards. Hell, current arch-nemesis is a century's old alchemist who heads up a clan of mystic ninja assassins.
The thing that makes Batman fascist is often in the negative. His enemies all tend to benefit from or embody late 20th century progressive tropes. Penguin is a crippled foreigner who uses his disability to shield himself from culpability. The Joker is constantly getting let out of Arkam Asylum either thanks to its lax security or to due to duping some gullible psychologist. Mr. Freeze is a villain for wanting to save his cryogenically frozen wife at the expense of Wayne Industry's bottom line. Two-Face is a literally two-faced politician. Poison Ivy is an ultra-feminist eco-terrorist.
Batman is the only "normal" one. And he's "normal" because he's the guy clear-eyed enough to keep to his conservative family values and strong (read: rich) enough to defeat the evil progressive bad guys when The Government is too incompetent or too corrupt or too paralyzed by their innate liberal weaknesses to try.
That's what makes the comic fascist.
Freeze has no connection to Wayne Industry's bottom line, and Penguin is literal aristocracy. He's also rarely if ever a foreigner. He is from old money in Gotham like Bruce, but his family one way or another lost it but kept the prestige so he goes to Britain and comes back. Telltale plays with this nicely, but usually he is just an aristocratic "legitimate" businessman. No progressive trope about him. You could've went with Ras or Anarky, why use Penguin?
He's introduced as a Wayne Industries employee who gets fired for misappropriating company property.
That... depends heavily on the writer. Sometimes he's born into a rich family and breaks bad. Sometimes he's a come-up-from-nothing crime boss. But the general theme of the character is that you can't trust successful disabled people because they could only have come into their money by being crooks.
Its a very old trope, because its ultimately a commentary on eugenics. He's literally "born bad", in the same way the crippled guy from 300 is just naturally bad. The argument is that these guys shouldn't have been allowed to survive to adulthood.
I thought I hit on Ras with the Evil Wizards comment. Anarky isn't really a mainline villain.
That is only Freeze's origin in New 52. The iconic tragic origin his boss is Boyle. That's the one just about everyone thinks of, and it is sympathetic, certainly not vilifying him for that. Hell I'd say Freeze is made too sympathetic, too much of an anti-hero in comics. I like the one moment in the tapes from AC that has Strange point that Nora didn't want this shit, and that Victor is essentially dehumanizing her by keeping her alive in a block of ice against her will.
As for Penguin, the general theme is not that you cannot trust disabled people. I can maybe see the point that the old trope is present, but it sure as hell is not the general theme. A theme gets played with, or is a constant, Penguin being untrustworthy because of disability even as subtext or just what is conveyed implicitly (which is not a general theme, it is an implication) is only really a thing in the Burton film. Penguin was not disabled in the comics for decades. it is not till 1981 that we see the origin that he was bullied for being short, and had to carry an umbrella cause his worried mother didn't want him to die from pneumonia like his father. He is made a high society outcast in 1992. I can kinda see the "unworthy" thing in The Batman where he shows up to a Wayne party that he is not invited to and is rude but Bruce and Alfred also come off like they are more annoyed that he doesn't fit in. his family is "the bad billionaires" essentially, and in contrast Alfred's grandfather back in England was a butler for a Cobblepot and was treated like shit. So the classic "we can show bad rich people, but only if we also have good rich people as a focus"
I can't find anything beyond Arkham and Telltale that has him be British and in both cases he is not a foreigner, but very much old money in Gotham who went to boarding school. You want to actually criticize the text itself the way more on point criticism is that Penguin is used to justify felony disenfranchisement. Saying his general theme is that cripples are bad is so loose and tangential at best beyond Batman Returns (and even then not a foreigner) , whereas Penguin has consistently been used as someone who gets parole and manipulates the law into thinking he has reformed when he is really still evil. It goes as far back as Batman 36 from 1946 with him "going legit" but not really.
This trope was repeated again and again to the point that it is now undeniably the crux of the character. B:TAS even has an episode using it. In one story he legit does reform and get released but sees a cartoon belittling Penguins so he returns to crime in anger. Batman 41 has him have another business that is a front for robbing people, etc etc. It really has been THE Penguin trope since fucking 1946 and no one wants to break from it.
I am not defending the way Batman stories handle disability, but it is such a stretch to say that's the general theme for penguin, or that it even applies a lot of the time. I know the trope, but once it can even apply to Penguin he had already been established and very soon after it could be applied he was specifically made an aristocrat. Outside of Arkham, and Batman Returns I just don't see that holding weight. Particularly when there are other tropes that Penguin stories play into much harder than going for eugenics. If anything it is more than they play him up as slimy and grotesque because he is an aristocrat. That is not a good trope, and disability shouldn't be used as punishment full stop, but it comes as a corollary to someone being evil because they are an aristocrat. A better example of this would be Salazar from Resident Evil 4 which don't get me wrong is cringey as well for that. I think this video on that character and particularly some of the comment section break it down better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOuTzNQ2YM
Essentially they target and dehumanize disability as a means of mocking aristocrats in the same way one might play up Hitler's fucked up body or Goebbels disabilities. On its face a means of drawing attention to the fact that these people who see themselves as inherently superior are in fact possessing of the very traits they would see others exterminated for. It plays into the same bigotry towards the disability or otherness that said fascists and aristocrats are vile for upholding. It makes hypocrisy the sin, NOT bigotry. like that Preacher panel people love to bring up that mocks white supremacists with double chins and beer guts, I get the point, but in the end it is just reinforcing the premise of said assholes.
Boy that was a tangent.....oh yeah Penguin. So yeah I think Batman villains are often made more sympathetic than Batman himself. Sometimes in a way that goes too far, and regardless it serves to sorta just say "look Batman feels bad for Killer Croc and him being dehumanized due to his disability, that makes it complex when Batman beats the shit out of him and also makes Croc the real victim when he murders people" etc. The problem with a lot of sympathetic villains in Batman stories is they need to keep coming back, so their sympathetic act has to either justify repeat offenses, or they choose to keep making mistakes etc. The complexity is sacrificed for serialization
Very true. And also one reason the comics can't be particularly Utopian, as they would stray too far away from the premise to be recognizable to new readers.
One reason why I grew into an Anime fan over time. They tend to have much better direction and purpose
Point taken about the Penguin, though.
X-Men deserves credit, yeah, its foundation is so much less cringe than most superheroes. Its drama comes from people and how they interact with the world, rather than constantly edging with that dreadful "oohoohoo but if PowerMan was just a little less selfless he could really fuck you peons up, and he'd be right to do it because you worms hurt his feelings as a kid" shit. At least X-Men is about adults protecting and fostering a community of outcasts at its core.