I agree that Ukraine is very corrupt and not “fighting for democracy” or whatever the Western media is saying about this war, but is there any chance that Ukrainians wanted to push toward the EU and away from Russia’s economic influence? It’s always taken at face value that the Euromaidan protests were US backed and the protestors were all US/NATO puppets, but what if many of them just didn’t want to be another Russian puppet state like Belarus and wanted to try to increase their standard of living? Not saying I agree with them, both options of moving forward are shitty but the “Russia was provoked” argument only works if the Ukrainians had no autonomy whatsoever and were being controlled by the CIA like puppets.
Otherwise it’s much less justified if Ukraine just wanted to move away from Russia’s influence toward the West on its own accord. Having millennial cousins over in Belarus who hate Luka I wouldn’t be surprised if most millennials in Ukraine truly just opposed Russia and wanted to move away before the invasion. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea is a different situation as that part of the country was much more sympathetic toward Russia but I don’t get why Putin didn’t just ramp up the fighting against separatists there instead of push to Kyiv? Once he brought the invasion to the entirety of Ukraine it can only be justified if he was provoked beyond belief, not just a regional conflict.
I get we are propagandized to an absurd degree in the West but I feel like lots of users here swing too far the other way. I don’t think NATO is as smart as lots of people here might think, Ukrainians wanting to move toward Europe is not even considered as a possibility which seems at the very least to be intellectually dishonest.
It's certainly the case that some of Ukraine's population supported the coup, fascism has been actively cultivated there for decades (see Operation Bloodstone) and the Banderite cult has shown itself to be alive and well. That said, they do not represent all of Ukraine, particularly not the massive Russian population who make up the majority in the eastern part of the country (nor the other minorities like the Poles, Jews, Romani, etc.)
I don't know enough about the proportions of demographics to give you a more numerical estimate, but the coup did throw out an elected leader, which inclines me to say that it was more likely a large minority sentiment using force to get its way when a system that got more widespread input (liberal though it was) didn't work for them.
Here's an alright article on the topic:
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
Those are good points. I do think the youth doesn’t have the sentimental attachment to the USSR that older Ukrainians would have. It sounds absurd but from what I hear from my Belarusian cousins they are jealous of Poland for being in the EU and they’d prefer to join the EU if it meant giving up their Russian ties. It’s probably similar to how lots of Scottish and Welsh people feel about England.
I guess my main issue with the “they couldn’t possibly side with Europe over Russia because they’re ethnically Russian” is that if Luka were to ever be overthrown by a pro-EU government in Belarus I know my cousins would love that and like most Belarusians they grew up speaking Russian. Many on this site would say that was a CIA plot or that they are brainwashed by Western propaganda but idk their economic outlook is generally pretty shitty over there. One of my cousins made it over here to the US from Belarus and loves it here compared with back home.
People aren’t necessarily 100% loyal to the country that aligns with their ethnicity or native language, that doesn’t really make sense. It wouldn’t surprise me if lots of Ukrainians disliked Yanukovych without the CIA brainwashing them into doing so since it’s probably similar to how plenty of Belarusians hate Luka in a similar way.
I agree that Ukraine is very corrupt and not “fighting for democracy” or whatever the Western media is saying about this war, but is there any chance that Ukrainians wanted to push toward the EU and away from Russia’s economic influence? It’s always taken at face value that the Euromaidan protests were US backed and the protestors were all US/NATO puppets, but what if many of them just didn’t want to be another Russian puppet state like Belarus and wanted to try to increase their standard of living? Not saying I agree with them, both options of moving forward are shitty but the “Russia was provoked” argument only works if the Ukrainians had no autonomy whatsoever and were being controlled by the CIA like puppets.
Otherwise it’s much less justified if Ukraine just wanted to move away from Russia’s influence toward the West on its own accord. Having millennial cousins over in Belarus who hate Luka I wouldn’t be surprised if most millennials in Ukraine truly just opposed Russia and wanted to move away before the invasion. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea is a different situation as that part of the country was much more sympathetic toward Russia but I don’t get why Putin didn’t just ramp up the fighting against separatists there instead of push to Kyiv? Once he brought the invasion to the entirety of Ukraine it can only be justified if he was provoked beyond belief, not just a regional conflict.
I get we are propagandized to an absurd degree in the West but I feel like lots of users here swing too far the other way. I don’t think NATO is as smart as lots of people here might think, Ukrainians wanting to move toward Europe is not even considered as a possibility which seems at the very least to be intellectually dishonest.
It's certainly the case that some of Ukraine's population supported the coup, fascism has been actively cultivated there for decades (see Operation Bloodstone) and the Banderite cult has shown itself to be alive and well. That said, they do not represent all of Ukraine, particularly not the massive Russian population who make up the majority in the eastern part of the country (nor the other minorities like the Poles, Jews, Romani, etc.)
I don't know enough about the proportions of demographics to give you a more numerical estimate, but the coup did throw out an elected leader, which inclines me to say that it was more likely a large minority sentiment using force to get its way when a system that got more widespread input (liberal though it was) didn't work for them.
Here's an alright article on the topic: https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
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Those are good points. I do think the youth doesn’t have the sentimental attachment to the USSR that older Ukrainians would have. It sounds absurd but from what I hear from my Belarusian cousins they are jealous of Poland for being in the EU and they’d prefer to join the EU if it meant giving up their Russian ties. It’s probably similar to how lots of Scottish and Welsh people feel about England.
I guess my main issue with the “they couldn’t possibly side with Europe over Russia because they’re ethnically Russian” is that if Luka were to ever be overthrown by a pro-EU government in Belarus I know my cousins would love that and like most Belarusians they grew up speaking Russian. Many on this site would say that was a CIA plot or that they are brainwashed by Western propaganda but idk their economic outlook is generally pretty shitty over there. One of my cousins made it over here to the US from Belarus and loves it here compared with back home.
People aren’t necessarily 100% loyal to the country that aligns with their ethnicity or native language, that doesn’t really make sense. It wouldn’t surprise me if lots of Ukrainians disliked Yanukovych without the CIA brainwashing them into doing so since it’s probably similar to how plenty of Belarusians hate Luka in a similar way.