and intended to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used during interrogations to weaken people and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture.

But remember it's the evil tankies that are the authoritarians.

  • Frank [he/him, he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    This is just the exception to the rule and anway they stopped doing all that 40 years ago which, unrelated, is also the last time they were forced to unclassify their actions.

  • YearOfTheCommieDesktop [they/them]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    BUT I DIDNT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE US, I CONDEMN THAT TOO

    (never mind that they have literally never said anything more against the US' actions than "huh, that was kinda messed up back then. Good thing we would never do anything like that now. US hegemony must be maintained so the evil <villain of the day> don't take over")

    • LaughingLion [any, any]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      "I support that" or "I'm against that"

      Maybe I'm Calvinist in this way but I don't believe that thinking a thing is bad or good or occasionally mentioning such constitutes support or resistance. Support and resistance require actions otherwise it's just you re-assuring yourself that you are a good person.

      • JuneFall [none/use name]
        ·
        1 year ago

        This would mean that us hexbear liberals and other liberals are in fact not supporting most of what we claim we support. Which is true. (of course public vocations of support are political acts, too, but there can be more to constitute support)

  • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
    ·
    1 year ago

    They also basically from the start knew exactly what the USSR and China was supposedly using to create "false" confessions, theres a FOIA document out there thats like a summary of it and its all just like, put a guy in a shitty cell, dont feed him, dont let him sleep well, fuck with him at random so he never gets a sense of rhythm, guilt him about shit and then offer him an out.

    And there was never any sign that there was serious research about moving beyond that, so the whole of MKUltra was just to gain an edge and to make all those savage medieval methods into smart american scientific methods instead.

    I do remember one somewhat ironically insightful thing from that document though, it remarked that from the US perspective, it seemed like each of the nations they observed had their methods shaped by the character and history of the nation, their actual analysis of the USSR and China from this perspective was just racist stereotypes, but MKUltra is really intensely American in character when it comes to their perspective and goal of using almighty science to unlock the operating system of the human brain.

  • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    According to historian Peter Kenez, "the Russian socialists have contributed nothing to the theoretical discussion of the techniques of mass persuasion. ... The Bolsheviks never looked for and did not find devilishly clever methods to influence people's minds, to brainwash them."

    Kenez says this lack of interest "followed from their notion of propaganda. They thought of propaganda as part of education."[3] In a study published in 1958, business administration professor Raymond Bauer concluded: "Ironically, psychology and the other social sciences have been employed least in the Soviet Union for precisely those purposes for which Americans popularly think psychology would be used in a totalitarian state—political propaganda and the control of human behavior."

    Stole that from somebody else's post, don't know what the original stuff is that's being referenced but with the names you could probably find it.

  • Vampire [any]
    ·
    1 year ago

    if the president does it, that means that it is not illegal

    • JuneFall [none/use name]
      ·
      1 year ago

      From a non US perspective that seemed to be such a counterfactual talking point that is so strong on US centrism. No sensible person after WWII would say "It wasn't illegal since Hitler did it!"

  • barrbaric [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    Another case of the US making its own problems.

    Okay so the evil Ruskies and chicoms are brainwashing our troops, because they are evil, so we must learn how to brainwash right back! We cannot allow a brainwash gap!

    No, it's not evil if we do it, our skull-shape is moral

    Torture random students etc for years

    Learn that you can torture people for years and that the people being tortured don't like it

    a-guy

  • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    A while back I had some fun where I'd write a prompt for an AI talking about something like MKUltra, Operation Paperclip, etc, and then just let it fill out the page and google everything it comes up with. That's how I learned about eugenicist and torturer Donald Ewen Cameron, and Canada's involvement in MKUltra.

    Donald Ewen Cameron

    Donald Ewen Cameron (24 December 1901 – 8 September 1967)[1] was a Scottish-born psychiatrist. He is largely known today for his central role in unethical medical experiments, and development of psychological and medical torture techniques for the CIA. He served as president of the American Psychiatric Association (1952–1953), Canadian Psychiatric Association (1958–1959),[2] American Psychopathological Association (1963),[3] Society of Biological Psychiatry (1965)[4] and the World Psychiatric Association (1961–1966).[5]

    Cameron was involved in administering electroconvulsive therapy and experimental drugs, including poisons such as curare and hallucinogens such as lysergic acid diethylamide, to patients and prisoners without their knowledge or informed consent. Some of this work took place in the context of the Project MKUltra program for the developing of mind control and torture techniques, psychoactive poisons, and behavior modification systems; whether or not he was aware of this is unknown.[6] Decades after his own death, the psychic driving technique he developed continued to see extensive use in the torture of prisoners around the world.[7]

    In 1945, Cameron, Nolan D. C. Lewis and Dr Paul L. Schroeder, colonel and psychiatrist, University College of Illinois, were invited to the Nuremberg trials for a psychiatric evaluation of Rudolf Hess. Their diagnosis was amnesia and hysteria, per a short commentary in the Journal of the American Medical Association.[14] Hess later confessed that he had faked the amnesia.[15]

    Cameron started to distinguish populations between "the weak" and "the strong". Those with anxieties or insecurities and who had trouble with the state of the world were labelled as "the weak"; in Cameron's analysis, they could not cope with life and had to be isolated from society by "the strong". The mentally ill were thus labelled as not only sick, but also weak. Cameron further argued that "the weak" must not influence children. He promoted a philosophy where chaos could be prevented by removing the weak from society

    In his analysis, culture and society played a crucial role in the ability for one to function according to the demands necessary for human survival. Therefore, society should function to select out the weak and unwanted, those apt towards fearsome aggression that threatened society. Psychiatry would play a disciplinary role.

    Cameron began to explore how industrial conditions could satisfy the population through work and what kind of person or worker is best suited to industrial conditions. A stronger personality would be able to maintain itself in heavy industrial situations, he theorised, while the weaker would not be able to cope with industrial conditions. Cameron would analyze what conditions produced the stronger worker, what would be the necessary conditions to replicate this personality and to reward the stronger while disciplining the weaker.

    Cameron wrote that mental illness was transmitted generationally; thus, the re-occurrence of mental illness could be stopped by remodeling and expanding existing concepts of marriage suitability, as well as the quarantine of mentally ill individuals from the general population. The only cure for mental illness, he theorized, was to eliminate its "carriers" from society altogether.

    Cameron believed that mental illness was literally contagious – that if one came into contact with someone with mental illness, one would begin to produce the symptoms of a mental disease. For example, something like rock music could be created by mentally ill people and would produce mentally ill people through infection, which in turn would be transmitted to the genes. Thus, this group would have to be studied and controlled as a contagious social disease. Police, hospitals, government, and schools would need to use the correct psychiatric authority to stop mental contagions from spreading. Cameron also hoped to generate families capable of using authority and techniques to take measures against mental illness, which would later be apparent in Cameron's MKULTRA and MKDELTA experiments.

    During the 1950s and 1960s, Cameron's work attracted the interest of the Central Intelligence Agency's MKUltra mind control program, which began funding his work under MKUltra subproject 68.[23][24]

    Cameron had been hoping to correct schizophrenia by "erasing" existing memories and "reprogramming" the psyche. He commuted from Lake Placid, New York to Montreal every week to work at McGill's Allan Memorial Institute and was paid $69,000 from 1957 to 1964 to carry out MKUltra experiments there, known as the Montreal experiments. In addition to LSD, he experimented with various paralytic drugs such as curare and electroconvulsive therapy at thirty to forty times the normal power.[26] His "psychic driving" experiments consisted of putting a subject into a drug-induced coma for weeks at a time (up to three months in one case) while playing tape loops of noise or simple statements. These experiments were typically carried out on patients who had entered the Institute for minor problems such as anxiety disorders and postnatal depression; many were permanently debilitated after these treatments.[27] Such consequences included incontinence, amnesia, forgetting how to talk, forgetting their parents, and thinking their interrogators were their parents.[28] His work was inspired and paralleled by the psychiatrist William Sargant, who was also involved with the intelligence services (though not with MKULTRA) and experimented extensively on his patients without their consent, causing similar long-term damage.[29]

    Sid Taylor stated that Cameron used curare to immobilise his patients during his research. After one test he noted: "Although the patient was prepared by both prolonged sensory isolation (35 days) and by repeated depatterning, and although she received 101 days of positive driving, no favourable results were obtained."

    • HamManBad [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Cameron hated the Nazis because he thought they were just another swarthy Eastern horde, and practically busted out the calipers when testifying against them at the Nuremberg trials.

      • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Can't believe these Nazis ruined public perception of an otherwise great idea by trying to do it with their inferior German genetics.

        Well, anyway, I'm off to my job where I pose as a legitimate psychiatrist so I can abduct and torture random citizens for a top secret CIA mind control program.

        Oh hey, I've just been invited to run the World Psyciatric Association. Lemme just pack up my electrocution equipment and roofies and I'll be right there.

  • Awoo [she/her]
    ·
    1 year ago

    "Yeah but it's ok because the government doesn't do that anymore."