On lemmy.world I posted a comment on how liberals use 'tankie' as an invective to shut down dialogue and received tons of hateful replies. I tried to respond in a rational way to each. Someone's said 'get educated' I responded 'Im reading Norman Finkelstein's I'll burn that bridge when I get there' and tried to keep it civil.
They deleted every comment I made and banned me. Proving my point, they just want to shut down dialogue. Freedom of speech doesn't existing in those 'totalitarian' countries right? But in our 'enlightened' western countries we just delete you.
omg i just had the misfortune of wandering into this thread, https://lemmygrad.ml/post/806853 i am so glad we have our own space where we can safely laugh at these fools. omg.
Holy shit what an insufferable group.
"Define Tankie"
Red fascist
Who defines a buzzword with a buzzword ffs.
Also! (Paraphrasing)
[...] people who justify genocides. [...]
'scuze me what the fuck? Who here says genocides are cool and good actually? We are like the first fuckers to point them out and scream about them???
And even more!
Comrade Spood
Now that's dose of Anarcho-Debilizm let me tell you. "Just press the communism button Xi and we'll succeed no problem! They will just let us exist and everyone will love each other :3"
And it just still keeps going!
Educate yourself. / Please change and grow as a person. / Read a book.
Motherfuckers I read too much compared to your sorry asses.
I refuse to believe there's actually 1.6gb of anarchist literature in existence that's not supplemented with lots of random unpublished PDFs and saved blog posts that are rife with poor grammar and spelling errors.
"I have" doesn't mean "I've read", what a pretentious dumbass.
In the second part of this pic she tells the reader not having read any of it.
Hilarious how she doesn't even have a problem admitting it's all a matter of fitting the edgy cyberpunk aesthetic of blue hair, computers, skateboards and slapping stickers around. All about individual image and no political dedication.
And I can understand listening to theory audiobooks instead of reading them, although I think it's worse as it's harder for you to re-read lines and take notes, but... While skateboarding? Can you imagine yourself attempting to make any sense of a Das Kapital audiobook while playing basketball? Probably just to be able to say "yeah i've already read it" and nothing else. Once again, all about aesthetics.
I also refuse to believe this person is a real human being and not some Fed or Fed adjacent bootlicker. lol
Yeah it was torture. I tried to keep it civil and lighthearted and actually engage but they are so programmed it's almost knee jerk comment reaction at this point.
Also fun and great that so many Lemmy instances won't federate material that threatens their worldview. I mean, I'm 100% anti Nazi anti fascist and anti authoritarian but what does that even matter right? How dare I say there might be a different way to view say Cuba China Vietnam or North Korea...
"These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world"
My favorite Engels tweet.
Just because a state brands itself socialist doesn't say anything about the level of democracy or workers' control of it.
sure, but if we were talking about non-socialist states that call themselves socialist, we wouldn't call them socialist states
Well IMHO both USSR and China shows how gaining workers control and keeping it, or moreso making significant headway towards communism, is just much more complicated. Representative worker ownership of the means of production through the state doesn't have a compelling track record. I think it's dishonest, reactionary and anti intellectual to laugh off arguments like that of comrade spood from the screenshot above.
Edit: checked out my claim on calorie intake and discovered it was dubious. Removed, but letting the main argument stay.
The USSR was eventually compromised, so it technically failed in that sense, but how is China an example of failing to retain worker control? If you're claiming that capitalists control China's government, I'd challenge you to provide some evidence
Lack of press freedom, organization freedom, social credit system, great firewall of China, over 2000 work hours pr year (France has 1500), severely low scores in democracy rankings. This doesn't smell much like worker control, more like authoritarianism. But then again, I'm very much from the West. Happy to be educated on my shortcomings in understanding 👍
Lack of press freedom
Compared to what country? What exactly are workers not allowed to say or write in China that is allowed in the West?
[Lack of] organization freedom
Compared to what country? There are hundreds of protests every day across China
social credit system
You mean the "system" that's been debunked many times by various Western capitalist media outlets?
great firewall of China
Maintaining Internet sovereignty from the imperial core and having workers in control of the government are not mutually exclusive
over 2000 work hours pr year
Citation needed
severely low scores in democracy rankings
Whose rankings, and why do you consider them relevant?
The burden of proof is on you, since you are making extraordinary claims. No matter, here:
https://rsf.org/en/ranking china nr 173
https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=1000:50002:0::NO:50002:P50002_COMPLAINT_TEXT_ID:4341007 one of many cases. Are you allowed to start a union in China? Doesn't seem like it.
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/FreedomOfInformationChina/great-firewall-technical-perspective/index.html Re firewall - information blockade and surveillance != Worker control nor sovereign internet.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9049298 One of thousands scholarly articles on this. Next youre gonna tell me IEEE is revisionist?
https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours 2200 working hours pr year is ridiculous!
You're not really convincing me that China is a good example of worker control. Let me ask you something:
- What evidence or examples can you provide to support your claim that workers exert significant control over the Chinese state? Are there specific policies, decisions, or instances where workers' influence is evident?
- How do you reconcile the lack of press freedom and restrictions on organizing independent labor movements with the assertion that workers have control? Do you believe these limitations are inconsequential or have alternative explanations?
- How would you explain the extensive power and authority of the Chinese Communist Party within the political system, considering your claim that workers are in control? What role does the Party play in shaping policy decisions and governance?
- Can you elaborate on the role of other influential actors, such as the government bureaucracy, state-owned enterprises, and the military, in the Chinese state? How do these entities interact with workers in terms of decision-making and power dynamics?
- Are there any studies, scholarly research, or analyses that specifically support the idea that workers hold significant control over the Chinese state? What are the methodologies and findings of these studies?
- How would you account for China's low rankings in democracy and freedom assessments conducted by international organizations? How do these rankings align with your assertion of workers' control over the state?
- What are your thoughts on the social credit system, the Great Firewall of China, and other control mechanisms employed by the government? How do these mechanisms affect workers' ability to influence state policies and decisions?
Your imperialist mouthpiece sources only confirm one thing: Imperialists HATE china. This confirms that china is on the correct track.
The firewall? Imperialists hate it.
Workers in charge? Imperialists hate it.
Real democracy? Imperialists hate it.
State-owned enterprises? The usa MIC hates it.
The "international organizations"? Owned by usa or its lackeys.
Which extraordinary claims have I made, exactly? That China isn't a horrible dystopia? The burden of proof isn't on me here, but I'll bite:
https://rsf.org/en/ranking
RSF, the organization that receives significant funding from the NED (an offshoot of the CIA) and various other imperialist organizations? Frankly, even if we ignore that part, why should anyone care about some tier list that doesn't even include justifications?
https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=1000:50002:0::NO:50002:P50002_COMPLAINT_TEXT_ID:4341007
Exactly which part of this page claims that creating a union is illegal in China?
Re firewall - information blockade and surveillance != Worker control nor sovereign internet.
That certainly is an opinion a person can have. My view is that there is no intrinsic connection between the two.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9049298 One of thousands scholarly articles on this.
From the article: "Data and algorithms for China's social credit system (SCS) are a topic of great current interest. Nonetheless, few details regarding China’s SCS have been officially released. What is clear, however, is that China's social credit system uses broader criteria than Western systems to rank and rate entities. The system is expected to operate through a wider range of mechanisms at the public and private spheres in order to assess the trustworthiness of individuals, businesses, and professional sectors with a goal to reward good behaviors and punish bad behaviors. A full implementation SCS is expected to have wide-ranging impacts on the lives of individuals and organizations than Western-style credit systems. The SCS can be considered an instrument of an overarching ideology that simply reflects the interests of the CCP leaders."
In other words, a bunch of assumptions. Truly an incredible scholarly article.
Next youre gonna tell me IEEE is revisionist?
Being a large journal doesn't mean the research is credible, particularly not for an organization based in the imperial core.
https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours 2200 working hours pr year is ridiculous!
From the page: "Annual hours are based on estimates of weekly working hours and weeks worked."
More guesswork, then. Do you have an actual primary source for this claim, or just opaque analyses from petit bourgeois Westerners?
Comments on post-edit questions:
What evidence or examples can you provide to support your claim that workers exert significant control over the Chinese state? Are there specific policies, decisions, or instances where workers’ influence is evident?
Feel free to look at this, it's a very useful source if you're actually interested in learning
How do you reconcile the lack of press freedom and restrictions on organizing independent labor movements with the assertion that workers have control? Do you believe these limitations are inconsequential or have alternative explanations?
Both of these things have yet to be proven. There's no complete freedom of speech, including press freedom, in any country that has ever existed. I'd challenge you to find me the equivalent of Julian Assange who's being tortured in China right now.
How would you explain the extensive power and authority of the Chinese Communist Party within the political system, considering your claim that workers are in control? What role does the Party play in shaping policy decisions and governance? Are there any studies, scholarly research, or analyses that specifically support the idea that workers hold significant control over the Chinese state? What are the methodologies and findings of these studies?
If you mean the Communist Party of China, they're elected by the proletariat using a bottom-up structure (everyone votes in local elections, the elected representatives vote in higher-level elections, etc.). See the link I mentioned above.
Can you elaborate on the role of other influential actors, such as the government bureaucracy, state-owned enterprises, and the military, in the Chinese state? How do these entities interact with workers in terms of decision-making and power dynamics?
How would you account for China’s low rankings in democracy and freedom assessments conducted by international organizations? How do these rankings align with your assertion of workers’ control over the state?
These "international organizations" aren't very international considering they're based in Western countries and controlled by Western capitalists. I give zero credibility to claims made without any evidence, especially if they're working for a fascist or imperialist cause.
What are your thoughts on the social credit system, the Great Firewall of China, and other control mechanisms employed by the government? How do these mechanisms affect workers’ ability to influence state policies and decisions?
I have yet to see any evidence that the social credit system exists, so there's no point in commenting on that.
The firewall is very good and should be implemented by any country that takes its sovereignty seriously, considering the role of various Amerikan social media companies in coups and colour revolutions around the world; those who can read other languages and want to access foreign servers are fully capable of doing so with a VPN. I have yet to see an example of it having a negative impact on workers' ability to influence the government for any domestic issues.
I hope you're actually asking in good faith; if so, you'll have a look at the GitHub page I linked. If you're going to avoid it and post more citation-free articles from bourgeois media outlets, I don't personally have the patience to keep replying
Talking to liberals like this is just a massive waste of time and energy. "Why is China ranked low on democracy indices made in the largest carceral state in the world?" Same old talking points regarding social credit. All these "thousands" of articles cite one Chinese source and the rest is a circlejerk of western authors. No news of any person being targeted or denied credit because of this. No real world ramifications documented. Just yellow peril fearmongering about how the sinister Chinese are watching your every move. Please don't come back here.
It's as much analysis as you can expect from the userbase of Tumblr lite.
Let's be fair to them, at least they aren't reactionary. Still, unfunny "uwu" memes mixed with Lockheed Left behaviour does not paint a much more enjoyable scene.
And I had the misfortune of not resisting to participate in it. Do not recommend.
oh dear. I told myself i wouldn't engage. (narrator: but he engaged). Just trying to gently nudge an anarchist towards materialist analysis, i'll try resist getting sucked into any arguments for my own sake.
Like moths flying into a bug zapper: we know it will hurt, but we just cannot help it.
This is liberal mental space, full of "freedom of speech". Liberalism is a cancer which leads to right extremism. And social democracy leads to liberalism. If you exclude ML from discourse, you eliminate whole left wing point of view consequently.
Go ahead liberals. Call me a tankie. See if I give one ten thousandth of a fuck. Literally such a low-tier insult. “Uhh its like… uh…you support this large cool looking machine that stopped Color Revolutions and was responsible for Liberating the Eastern Front during World War II” “Yea, I do😐” “😨”
Tankie means you approve when a communist state uses military/tanks against its own people... Not against a Nazi state. I would reconsider if you really want to wear that label with pride..
Tankie just means "any communist I don't like" at this point. Take your McCarthyism and complete ignorance about color revolutions elsewhere.
At what point does being clowned on by an entire instance spur self-reflection?
Look what people wrote as replies to my comment, look how the upvote downvote numbers are, think.
My key takeaway from this post is: people on lemmygrad say they are interested in discussion and all those other instances are oh so bad, because they block them or doenvote them or call them tankies, which people on lemmygrad interpret as slur.
At the same time, you get down voted to oblivion, when you even write the definition of tankies to someone, who calls himself one. People who are pride to be a tankies onLemmygrad: cherished People who criticise this in anyway: laught at.
And simultaneously everyone who calls anyone else except him self a tankie no matter the context is automatically a liberal, when Servers defederate them, they are all facists or love fascists
People making strawman arguments when I say in a discussion that I don't agree with Stalin ("ohhh so capitalism is sooo much better" - no, its not, and I didn't say that, I can disagree with capitalism and stlinism at the same time, go figure)
And people defending (literal) tankies get upvoted, people who don't get down voted.
This server has lost one of the strongest tools in material dialectic: (self-) critical thinking
I really hoped I would find interesting debates here, but this is a circlejerk
At what point will self reflection kick in? At what point t people in an echo chamber realise its one?
If you don't send tanks into hungary, the nazis will do pogroms and construct concentration camps there. Not sending tanks is inhumanly cruel.
I 100% agree, and tho I very much like Stalin(he’s my favorite writer) it doesn’t take a “Stalinist” to understand that Color Revolutions and Nazism need to be crushed for socialism to survive
Mathematician 1: 1+1=2 Mathematician 2: 1+1=2
Debatebro: Muh echo chamber!
Yeah, cause stating "tankie" means "every communist I don't like" is the only truth and like saying 1+1 =2
Also comparing societal questions to mathematical ones is totally unconcerning
/kappa
Marxism-Leninism is a branch of science. What I'm saying is that we all get the same results because that's how science works.
Everyone who has in interest in science knows that you can't prove opinions, but only facts. You can prove stuff like "capitalism is destroying the ecosystem" or "China masacered the Uigurs" you can't prove stuff like "Stalin was right" or "the bests way to interpret Marx is to consider the context he wrote in"
That's the basic difference between empirical and normative science.
And basically all questions of politics are at least partially normative.
I agree that materialistic dialectics can be used as scientific tools, and are by most people, but science also means, you accept that no one can have the "only true opinion" as empirical facts can be interpreted widely different and no human has ALL information. And even if one had, there are always subjective weightings at play (is human suffering worse than human death? Is animal death worse than human suffering? Is the system more valuable than individual freedoms?)
Science means knowing what you can and can't prove, so if you are scientific, you know that not everybody comes to the same conclusion even when using the same facts.
gonna need proof of "China masacered[sic] the Uigurs[sic]" that doesn't cite the far-right extremist Falun Gong cult, its "news" site The Epoch Times, or its Western mouthpiece, fundamentalist evangelical Christian pastor Adrian Zenz.
So what's your problem then? The tanks were sent and the nazis were crushed. Also, krushchev sent the tanks, not stalin. What's your problem with stalin?
What's my problem with Stalin?
I could not have described my problem with talking to people here better than you demonstrated it in this simple question, even if I would have used 100 words.
There's that empty liberal appeal to an assumed normative opinion again, combined with "uhh actually you have now proven my nebulous non-point by asking a basic question"
My man is floundering
Yeah it seems the problem is that you are a liberal. You calling us woke is a sign of being a wrecker.
Ahaha it gets better every comment. -(Wrong) Assumtions about my political believes -ranting about stuff I day don't even say (classical strawman)
This is a joke that just keeps on giving :D
It's in the title. It's the new woke.
Try reading what thread you're in first.
Also: Would you send tanks into hungary?
Yeah, but I didn't say anywhere that I agree with the OPs on the other server.
I think the word tankie gets used inflationary by centrists that don't know what it means, but that's not what u want to think. You want to put me in a box in your heads ;)
You want to put me in a box in your heads ;)
Hey Mr. Actually Laughing, that's what you came in here to do. Don't want to fit in the box? Don't be a square
Oh I don't do, and really don't need to prove that to some online bible stalinists. But its funny what your dogma glasses let you think is a square ^^
"Noooo I am totally not a liberal! I am an anarcho-bidenist-gonzaloite with juan guaido characteristics"
-liberals wanting to not be called liberals
That's what a liberal would say.
A liberal would also dodge all questions that make imperialists uncomfortable, like whether they would send tanks into hungary.
And it just goes on. But I do dodge the questions, I'll give you that. I'll even tell you why: I came here to have interesting discussions on how to create a better society. Communists are in the defense and neoliberalism is omnipresent, connecting and organising are more important then ever, part of connecting is sharing experiences with others online. But after I was in this community for 10 min. I realized, that I won't get that here. Majority of people here is just trying to vilanise everyone who remotely challenges their believes, put them in a box and then being proud they stand up against someone bad. So recently I'm just doing it for the fun and giggles (and therefore not putting effort in answering difficult questions which are actually complicated). The way people really think they are making a point when in reality they just show their own superiority complex isquite entertaining after all.
But the question about sending tanks is important because with this we could weed out nazi enablers.
Sure, because there is only black and white. Either you choose violence in every scenario or u are Nazi lover.
Flawless logic.
So this means you would not send the tanks?
The nazis will now put all non-nazis in hungary into concentration camps.
Nazi enabler.
Edit: You could have avoided most of the violence (that the nazis will inflict on innocent people now) by sending the tanks.
At least nobody is actually deleting your comments. When I posted the original thing to lemmy.world about how the word 'tankie' is used to stop all discourse, and then responded with many points, they deleted everything. As in poof no dialogue at all. At least we are all reading your words and responding. The downvotes don't mean anything other than there is disagreement with the conclusions of the argument is all. I say keep talking! I will upvote all your stuff. It is all about dialogue.
Yeah, but there is no real dialogue with most people here. Even if its just a question about what a word means.
Me: tankie comes from tanks They: no it means "commie I don't like" Me:that's not what most people think of when hearing the word, there can be different opinions about using tanks against civilians They: "so you love Nazis?"
That's not what I understand to be an discussion. A discussion would mean listening to the other party and trying to understand. With most people here its either like talking to a wall or talking with someone who's hobby it is building strawman arguments
I'll say it again:
If you don’t send tanks into hungary, the nazis will do pogroms and construct concentration camps there. Not sending tanks is inhumanly cruel.
You're not here for a dialogue, you're here because of a nagging sense of being complicit in something monstrous that compels you to justify your shallow beliefs and corrosive way of life by spewing half-digested propaganda at people discussing the problem.
Ahaha I wish you could read this from my perspective. You guys are so funny desperately trying to prove I'm a fascist/lib/nazi.
All the baseless assumptions you need to make to keep your blissfully "I'm the hero and everyone else is dumb" mindset.
Its just comedy gold
For real, they complain about "authoritarian tankies and their echo chambers" when we're not even censoring them like they do to us, they just can't handle being shown to be wrong.
You can't be an echo chamber because others are worse, that's your argument?
I have not been shown wrong, under this post I was agressivly told "that tankie means everyone you don't agree with", that "everyone who uses the word tankie is a lib and therefore wrong." Execept you call yourself one, then you get cherished and upvoted) , and it was implied, that I love Nazis if I don't agree with the people here.
Lots of people made lots of claims, but there wasn't anything shown let alone proven.
That's no discussion culture, that's a "have my opinion or get out" culture.
and it was implied, that I love Nazis if I don’t agree with the people here.
Just admit that you didn't know about the nazis in hungary, and you can still get out without being called a nazi enabler
There's a really great graphic novel called 'Berlin' that goes into how the Nazis came to be, how the communists were the ones that organized worker strikes to stop railroads to death camps etc. I don't think our meme warfare on the net will change anything but if your looking for a fun read checkit. Is there anything you would recommend for me? I probably I'll read it. I'm a reader.
Oh i totaly agree that communists were often the strongest force against fascists. Don't have to like Stalin to be a communist nor to be antifascist though
What is your opinion on the standing rock protests and the Kentucky state massacre
Also the 1956 Hungarian coup attempt that the epithet "tankies" comes from was literally full of nazis lmao
That's correct, specifically a state that uses tanks against its people in revolt.
However, people on Reddit (and on Lemmy now) basically use it to refer to any leftist they have a disagreement with.
Well saying tankies support using tanks against civilians gets you down voted on lemmygrad.
No tankies here though, all just libs propaganda
/kappa
Thats such an obvious strawman, i dont think i need to answer that ;)
Because if you would answer that you would have to admit that the wokes were right.
This is a rhetorical trap called "reality".
Oh I think there are a lot of people who get called woke and are right. Your rhetorical trap is not reality, its trying to get me to say something which confirms your prejustices.
Remember, my claim, forwhich you guys are fighting me here was "tankie" has other than "someone I don't like"
You attacked me verbally for saying that, and then realized, that you can't win this argument, cause in reality you agree with me so you try to shift the battlefield to a discussion you can win (and kept pressing really hard with your Hungarian Nazis ^^)
That's your rhetorical strategy, it has nothing to do with reality ;)
It was you who insisted that t***** was only targeted at people who wanted to send tanks into hungary to crush the nazi uprising.
I never talked about Hungary or Nazis (at least not before you guys insisted on that topic because that's a fight u practised)
My talking point was, and still is, "tankie doesn't mean " people I don't like " in my part of the world and most online debates. Sure there are people who use it this way, but they are far from the majority in my experience.
Even after I told you why I am here, you keep on building more stawmans to entertain me. Very nice of u ^^
If someone calls me a tankie I roll my eyes, but what makes my blood boil is the term "red fascist." What the actual F? I would have been in a fascist concentration camp for at least 3 reasons
No need to resort to suppositions; just look at Thälmann.
The term of "red fascist" is not only (purposefully) insulting to the memory of actual MLs who came under repression and execution from the hands of fascists (and ignoring that in many fascist states they were the forefront of resistance against it, see: the PCE under francoist Spain), but also dangerous as it blurs fascism as a word with a meaning, making actual fascism harder to identify and, thus, to combat.
There's a reason why fascism has to be redefined, blurred, or otherwise trivialized. Most libs don't do it on purpose but they serve reaction by doing so. If we actually learned the true socio-economic definition of fascism we'd very quickly realize that the golden billion live in nations which are arguably fascist.
Fascist or 'authoritarian' even. I asked for their definition so we couldn't at least have some ground to debate on but yeah, naw. It's just throwing memes. And I again reiterate the US is absolutely authoritarian. Prison population? Through the roof. Cop city? Murder protestors. War? Total media and popular support even to the tune of one trillion dollars a year.
1000000000000 dollars
Sometimes it kind of of makes me feel really irritated in a way because like, a lot of these people who are so overly concerned over "tankies", don't have that energy directed at fascists or reactionaries? They seem more concerned over "tankies" than reactionaries or fascists who are in power in various places and are hurting people. Like they will make a post or whatever denouncing "tankies", but where is that towards fascists? or reactionaries? If anything all they do is help fascists and reactionaries whether they are aware of that or not.
It's why it's really funny that there's a decent amount of libs trying to pretend that Lemmy (either .ml or as a whole) is this super "tankie" thing when they're really the opposite
Like, if the rest of the Lemmy universe was "tankie" we wouldn't need Lemmygrad in the first place
It's pretty funny that liberals see themselves as proponents of open debate and rational discourse, but in practice they start freaking out as soon as anybody challenges their dogmas.
Real "my girlfriend goes to another school" situation, except the girlfriend is their respect for other people
By the way, it seems that moderators in 196 are deleting those comments from lemmygrad posters in a way that appear as visible while seen from lemmygrad while they appear as deleted by mods from any other instances (or so I suppose, I do not know very well how does Lemmy work). This is happening even if there is no breaking of rules in sight.
it seems that moderators in 196 are deleting those comments from lemmygrad posters in a way that appear as visible while seen from lemmygrad while they appear as deleted by mods from any other instances
Whoa, that's pretty 1984 Animal House of them
It's also happens when liberals talk about foreign policy. The reduce critics of US foreign policy and NATO "America bad." Which is exactly as reductive as the hyperbolic critique they're trying to make.
A lot of this comes from the community from the streamer whose name starts with the v and who used to go by Irish Lassie. His community is especially toxic when it comes to using the term tankie as a pejorative.
And they don't even keep the smear to people that support the Bolsheviks. They've been saying that about Noam Chomsky and Jeremy corbyn and basically anyone that has been critical of NATO in the last few years.
A lot of this comes from the community from the streamer whose name starts with the v and who used to go by Irish Lassie. His community is especially toxic when it comes to using the term tankie as a pejorative.
And they don’t even keep the smear to people that support the Bolsheviks. They’ve been saying that about Noam Chomsky and Jeremy corbyn and basically anyone that has been critical of NATO in the last few years.
Imagine calling fucking Chomsky a tankie XD
Call them boaties because NATO sent 19 warships to surround and blockade Lisbon in 1974 after Portugal overthrew fascism and started nationalizing industries and redistributing land.
From Rogue State by William Blum, chapter 17
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More from chapter 18:
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I’ve talked about this before, albeit the topic was about self‐identified anticommunists, but I am sorry to say that it applies to a lot of leftoid noobs as well. Anybody who poses obviously loaded questions like ‘why is it being a “lib” to say that governments who repress the human rights and civil liberties of minorities are not practicing leftism in good faith? the same governments who have horrifically and violently crushed workers rights movements?’ does not need to be dignified with a serious response. You can’t make these bipeds educate themselves no matter how good your evidence is; it simply isn’t a matter that’s within your hands.
Do something else: unionize, agitate for better working conditions, exercise, train with a weapon, do some volunteer work, contribute to volunteers (like Food Not Bombs), or engage with communists or communist sympathizers who are very clearly asking in good faith. Personally, I spend my most productive time studying modern history, and I’ve amassed a respectable répertoire of knowledge. I can confidently say that you’ll learn more about capitalism in decay from me than you’ll ever learn from any horseshoe theorist or dullards saying ‘red fash’ unjokingly.
As Hakim or Yugopnik (I can't remember exactly) said, "tankie" is the new "commie"
Yugopnik I think from memory. He was saying how libs can't say "commie" because its such a dated word and nobody takes it seriously (except some conservatives who still say it unironically which is actually hilarious😂). It's too much associated with redscare era propaganda. Tankie doesn't carry this baggage but has exactly the same function.
Totally agree. Edgy Russian conquest apologists is far more apt. I hate the modern use of the term “tankie.” “Tankies” were at least communist. Had some ideas and principles. Neither Russia nor China has communist core economic systems.
You used so many words to say that you do not have a clue regarding how the economic system in China functions.
“
“So many words” I’m sorry my “micro blog” isn’t micro enough for you, message board warrior.
Not sure you understand what communism is. Nor how financial systems work. China is no more communist than North Korea is a republic.
I just don't get why people are downvotin' this comrade when they are clearly correct. According to the party doctrine on socialism with Chinese characteristics, China is not presently communist but is in the primary stage of socialism, aiming to develop towards full, egalitarian socialism and then on towards communism as the productive forces are modernized and the society develops further.
Mate you’re really making yourself look like a fool here I’d just quit while you’re ahead. Clear as day you haven’t a clue about geopolitics or economics. Must have missed the stop for reddit.
Oh you are now so engaged you follow me to other threads? That's nice of you.
Hm interesting, seems to dedependent on your locality. Where I live, there are lots of communists, anarchists materialists and general left at university's, factories and unions, but there is also a (very small) group of communists, who loves stalin,think everything that Russia does is automatically good (mostly while denieng they are a imperialist state) and everyone who doesn't treat Lenin's and Stalin's books like sacred texts which need to be followed down to the letter (instead of valuable contributions to a scientific debate) is wrong by definition and need to be shut down. All new Marxist philosophy's (material feminism, postkolonial study's, frankfurter schule, etc. Pp.) get denied the right to exist, people who write or work in other communist schools of thinking then them are called a counter revolutionary and spat on and threatens to get killed in the revolution. Furthermore they make it very clear, that everyone who hasn't exactly the same opinion as them is not welcomed in their communist utopia and would get put in to gulags (yes they use that word with pride) or directly killed by them/the state
Those people are get called tankies by the much bigger rest of th e communist/Marxist scene
So when people over here self describe as tankies and wear that label with pride (happend under this post)I was quite puzzled.
At least here its not a general slur against communists (like queer were for homosexuals) which can be turned around easily, it is a very specific description of a very specific group of people in the communists scene
So the people who call others tankies are almost never liberals (they don't even know that word, they just say communists and think this is enough of insult), it's mostly other Marxists/communists or more or less close ideology's like anarchists or socialists
They don't like you because you carry water for the colonialist usa. The people outside the west must be liberated and idealists like you want to stop their liberators because they are not clean enough or something. "Oh no they used violence once"
Oh and most of the nonwestern progressives fit your definition of t*****. Oh it's a slur that targets mostly non-caucasians again.
Oh you again, your the best of them all.
Soo let me recap:
You criticise anything about russia (like saying not everything they do is automatically good) --> you carry water for the USA
The man says the people outside the west need to be liberated.
I would agree, I would even say the people inside the west needs to be liberated. The world needs to be liberated.
But he thinks, the people in Russia or China are already liberated or even are the liberators.
Did it ever occur to you, that those countries are just imoerialisric states with a bad communist mask?
Or is your liberty one where you get put in jail or worse if you are gay, where the working class still works for rich old man and gets almost nothing, where ideological power is maintained through prisons and shootings?
In the west, you lose your job, then go homeless and then get put in jail when you do not conform to the cishet ableist neurotypical society.
The people in russia have been re-enslaved by the west.
The people in the west are mostly complicit in the usa's imperialism, they don't need to be "liberated" from their slavery loot.
Edit: and you are a nazi enabler.
I got 11 upvotes on a Ho Chi Minh quote in the clown shoes thread. Was that all you guys?
I see it got deleted. Ho Chi Minh should have known better and organize Vietnam's liberation from colonialism through confederated and horizontally-organized municipal communes, I suppose.
It might be interesting to start a conversation on the appropriate comm there about whichever rule is being enforced (check the modlog) and challenge the rule.
If you mean the blahaj 196, i doubt it will do anything, because it's apparently this rule by their mod:
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