Hi there, I'm not trying to start a political argument or anything, I'm just curious what people here think about this often repeated claim that the Federation is a socialist or even communist utopia? I know Strange New Worlds did say in dialogue it is socialist but I was wondering if people here think that's accurate? I'm not a communist or a marxist or anything like that, but I've had people who identify as such tell me the Federation basically is communist. So anyway, what's your thoughts?
The federation tends to let member planets be independent, the federation doesn't come in and be like "we own your planet and we provide for you in return we take everything", so it's definitely leaning socialist.
The main difference is who owns the means of production. In communism, the government does. In socialism, the people do.
Both aim to provide for the population at large and not just benefit to a few rich elites that own everything, but socialism is a bit more robust against tyrannical governments.
It's amazing how people just make things up. I genuinely have no idea where you got these definitions unless it was some hole on Reddit or similar.
What manages the means of production if not a government? Saying "the people" is as hollow as the US talking about "Freedom" and "Democracy". "The people" cannot merely project their will into the aether and have it realized, they need some method of organization. They need to be able to administrate complex systems rather than just hang out in "primitive communism but with high technology somehow". Whatever that system is and whatever you call it, that's a government. In a system of democratic government that administers things, the difference between "the people" owning things and the government -- here an organ that exists only so the people can manage the means of production -- owning them is immaterial.
I'm not claiming anything I said is facts, just the way I understand it to be/how it had been explained to me quite a while ago. I could absolutely be wrong, if that's the case I'll gladly retract my comment based on new (to me) information. I'm far from qualified to give an authoritative answer on this topic.
The way I understand it is "the government decides to build a factory because the country needs a factory" vs "the people of a region get together and build a factory because they want one". Well, in either case nobody really owns the factory (compared to capitalism), but rather who's in charge of it, who decides who works on what and how it comes to be.
Unfortunately the only examples of communism we've seen are authoritarian regimes like the Soviet Union, and currently North Korea and China (sort of). I don't think we have a true socialist community that's not some form of capitalist hybrid, let alone post-scarcity communism or socialism without massive corruption tainting it.
I apologize for being coarse, it's a bad habit of mine.
If the government is democratic, there's very little substantive difference here as-described, because "the government decides X" is an entity with the popular mandate doing it, and if that decision loses it the popular mandate, the people can oppose it. Likewise, if "the people" of a locality decided to build a factory in this hypothetical and a minority opposed it, if the minority cannot sway the majority, they are simply ignored.
The problem comes in when you realize that the goods produced by factories mostly aren't for the use of the local community, they are for a much more expansive group of people. There need to be systems to coordinate production at the full scale of society so that people have some idea of who needs what. It's compounded by the fact that the machines in the factory will themselves probably need to be imported from elsewhere.
Depending on your definitions, you left out Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos. In any case, I don't think most people are able to maintain the "real communism has never been tried" stance. Eventually, you either come down on the side that "No, they were real communism and communism is therefore evil" or "I was lied to about at least some of these countries and should give them credit". For an anglophone, societal gravity is very much on the side of the first option, but it's possible to reach the second conclusion if you have a strong enough motivation to dig through information. Cuba is probably the route of least resistance.
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Yeah I'm not a communist primarily because I'm against dictatorship and human rights abuse but socialism sounds more interesting
From a Marxist perspective, all class-based societies are governed by dictatorships:
Right now, we live in the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie
I'm not a Marxist so don't agree
You literally just don't know what you're talking about
Because I'm not a Marxist? Um ok lol
Well yes, but more broadly because you keep using words without knowing what they mean
Do you mean dictatorship? Most ppl use it in the way I mean, as the vast majority are not Marxists.
Dictatorship, socialist, communist, liberal, rights, private property
Really pretty much all of the relevant terms here
This particular string of replies was you doing a stupendously poor job of explaining anything or accomplishing anything but looking like a snob. It would be better to say nothing than to be an asshole to someone who has done nothing worse than be a slightly frustrating liberal in their own thread on a non-communist instance.
Given this thread is about whether or not the Federation is a communist or socialist society, Marxist definitions are the most useful, eh? Furthermore, I'd argue that the term Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie very accurately describes American (I'm an American) society, and does so regardless of one's personal beliefs.
Well there are non Marxist socialist/communist models and systems but I take your point. I was just answering you because you responded to why I'm not a communist, that's all
Again, perfectly fair. Before I was a communist, I rejected Marxist concepts as well. I've spent over two decades reading and listening to arguments for and against all sort of political, social and economic ideas. I've identified with centrism, liberalism, libertarianism, social democracy and other ideologies. Today, I consider myself to be a Marxist/socialist/communist not because it's just the latest thing I've hit upon, but because it's what's made the most sense to me. When I use Marxist words and ideas, I don't do so because I'm a Marxist; I'm a Marxist because those words and ideas have helped me to make the most sense of the world. And I'm certainly not demanding, or even asking, you do become a Marxist, I'm just asking you to consider what makes the most sense.
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If you don't want to start a political argument, that's not the way to do it.